"Enhanced" flooded starting batteries for stop start auto

landyacht318 wrote:
Many modern Autos intentionally keep the battery discharged to the point that when the driver lets off the gas, or hits the brakes, the battery can then accept higher amps when the voltage regulator commands 14.5+ volts. This acts as a poor regenerative braking MPG enhancer and a battery that basically is Never fully charged

This results in the continuous partial state of charge cycling of starter batteries, and short lifespans and not long after, whining customers demanding new batteries under warranty which then eats into profits.

I am a retired (12 years) automotive engineer. I worked on Powertrain Control Systems. "Smart charging" System were just becoming "standard' when I retired so things may have changed since then.

#1 smart charging systems goal is to improve fuel economy. #2 is to extend battery life in the midst of multiple short high current loads.

Now a days, voltage regulators are "dumb". All they do is turn on and off (or regulate) the field current at the direction of the PCM. Check any car built in the past ten years. Turn the headlights on for 5 minutes and then start the car. Connect a DMM to the battery and watch the voltage. It will start high (>14V) but over the course of 5-10 minutes it will drop down to <13.5V. This is all being controlled by the PCM.

Many current cars have battery "state of charge" and/or true battery load (current) sensors feeding data to the PCM.

Multiple re-starts from a "start-stop" system will have very little impact on the flood starting battery.

Seems like there is acknowledgement that the start stop and manipulation of battery state of charge so that it can accept high amps on demand, is causing premature failure of the warrantied batteries that coe with new vehicles.

We know trojan and likely others are incorporating some carbon into the plate paste to make the battery more resistant to sulfation in partial state of charge cycling.

I see this stop start as a good thing, in terms of attempts to get batteries to outlast their 36 month warranty so that the auto manufacturer need not warranty them.

Starting batteries are now being intentionally cycled with modern vehicles, not just randomly depletion via stereo or lights, then hope 13.8v is good enough to make it last the warranty period.
Vehicles now seek to hold the battery around 12.8v or less driving down the road, and only allow 14+ when letting off the gas or braking.

This equates to intentional cycling and if they are attempting to address partial state of charge cycling so that the battery outlasts the warranty period offfered with the new car, well lets hope there is merit to the carbon plate paste additive.

Or perhpaps there is simply no room for any possible improvement to lead acid battery construction, and this is just more marketing for the masses and max profit.

Gdetrailer wrote:

ScottG wrote:
I thought vehicles that had start-stop capability always used a battery other than their standard starting battery - no?

No.

Basically the vehicle uses a higher capacity starting battery.

I know of a few folks who own these type of vehicles, after going through a couple of super expensive batteries and one also lost a starter, they disabled that "feature".. Some vehicles not easy to disable..

I personally would not not want a vehicle stopping the engine, if stopped and you NEED to make a hasty acceleration to get out of danger there WILL be a delay in the time that it takes for the engine to restart..

Can you get better "economy" by doing this, yes, SLIGHTLY, but at the cost of longevity of the battery, starter and even perhaps the engine it's self..

The BETTER solution to economy is to find ways of reducing stop n go driving. Cloverleafs, round-a-bouts, business bypasses instead of stop light/ stop sign intersections goes a long way in better fuel economy..

My daily commute of 1 hr each way it takes me 10 minutes on a good day to go through 5 stop lights and that is less than a half mile stretch..

people in europe have been doing manual start stop technology for decades. When I've been in europe, even in the late 80's I'd say 90% of the gas vehicles turned off the engine at red lights, then started up when the side yellow came on or the red flashed (indicating green soon). I asked friends that lived in europe about starters and batteries going bad. Look was "what are you talking about?" never did find one that replaced a started in under 100K miles, often never. And batteries were lasting 5-10 years.

ScottG wrote:
I thought vehicles that had start-stop capability always used a battery other than their standard starting battery - no?

No.

Basically the vehicle uses a higher capacity starting battery.

I know of a few folks who own these type of vehicles, after going through a couple of super expensive batteries and one also lost a starter, they disabled that "feature".. Some vehicles not easy to disable..

I personally would not not want a vehicle stopping the engine, if stopped and you NEED to make a hasty acceleration to get out of danger there WILL be a delay in the time that it takes for the engine to restart..

Can you get better "economy" by doing this, yes, SLIGHTLY, but at the cost of longevity of the battery, starter and even perhaps the engine it's self..

The BETTER solution to economy is to find ways of reducing stop n go driving. Cloverleafs, round-a-bouts, business bypasses instead of stop light/ stop sign intersections goes a long way in better fuel economy..

My daily commute of 1 hr each way it takes me 10 minutes on a good day to go through 5 stop lights and that is less than a half mile stretch..

Pulse Charging

Strontium Plate Alloy Additive

Battery Eye

Par for the course

Meticulously create a problem where the never was one -- then BS your way through a miracle answer. Much like losing your brakes in the old days...pedal hits the floorboard and you'd swear it made the car go even faster...

Wotta hoot. I have a nine ton bus and an alternator that consumes almost 22 horsepower when angry. The effect of 22 horsepower is not felt at all. Take an EIGHTY AMPERE alternator and connect it to an 8 horsepower Honda 4-stroke gasoline engine. Start engine, advance throttle to 3400 RPM, Enable voltage regulator, motor loads a little but maintains speed at full eighty amps output.

This is supposed to be magic? It is mouse milk. Cruel deception. An air intake VORNADO that swirls air into a nuclear powered vortex as it enters the carburetor. Step on the starter after adding VX6 battery additive and the starter will rip its way through the hood and disappear leaving a comet trail of surplus ions in it's wake.

But this is the age of Con-Artistry. Politically Correct Unicorn Food. Declare it GREEN and then watch the mob see green, swallow brown, and beg for more

Yeah Delco had it right in the 1980's. Manufacture a 15 volt auto voltage regulator to do along with it's proprietary calcium/calcium Delcotron battery then expect consumers to pay 37% more for a DELCO battery. Oops! Blow the snot out of a replacement battery with 15 volts? "Well we told you the Decotron was special".

Clancy made have had it right, with that disaffected Japanese airliner pilot novel.

My Old man has a daily driven 2018 Cadillac ATS with start/stop. It has a single AGM in the trunk, a group 94 AC Delco AGM rated at 80AH and 800 CCA.

When I recently put my 40 amp capable Meanwell rsp-500-15 on it when set at 14.7v, it took 40 amps for about 20 seconds before tapering to about 5 amps within 5 minutes. So nowhere near fully charged.

I'd estimate it would have required 2 more hours for amps to taper below 0.4a @14.7v, but My dad was going somewhere and I removed the Meanwell before it got there. I also could not get the trunk light to turn off, I saw no trigger switch anywhere, and estimated that was 0.6 amps worth of load in the figures above.

I expected it to take 40 amps for a bit longer than it did, but if it sucked up 40 amps for 20 seconds, well one does not really brake for longer than that, and some websites say that every 25 amps the alternator makes, sucks up one engine HP so say the VR asks for 14.8 when braking, and the engine is only then asked to make 50 amps just for the battery.

I wonder just how long the battery will last in such usage, hovering in the 90% charged range, with little chance of a deep cycle.

Just shows how the auto manufacturers are up against a wall to improve economy.

My Edge has start-stop and came with an AGM battery. Don't think there was anything else unusual about the battery.

I thought vehicles that had start-stop capability always used a battery other than their standard starting battery - no?

“and short lifespans and not long after, whining customers demanding new batteries under warranty which then eats into profits.”

My TV battery lasts as long or longer than the “old” days. I see no mass battery issues with others. Therefore, I disagree.