I ran across this guys comments in a zero turn mower review and a guide to ethanol free stations "David S Boyd Duffys Outdoor Power Equipment August 25, 2014Gary, I am a Hustler dealer as well as a warranty center for Kawasaki engines. The problem that you are experiencing is not the Kawasaki engine or the Hustler mower. The problem is today’s gasoline with the Ethanol blend. TODAY’S engines are made to tighter tolerances for emissions and power. Like the cars of today, we are getting more power out of smaller engine sizes and as a result will act differently than the small engines of even 5 years ago. Ethanol is supposed to be at a max of 10% and the fuel cap on the Hustler states the same thing, but it has been our experience that the fuel companies has Ethanol up to 20%. Fuel that is left in a can for as little as 5 days will start to separate and the Ethanol will become concentrated. Ethanol has a lower boiling point, 173 degrees at sea level, and will cause vapor lock in a hot engine. Our suggestion is simple, use Ethanol free gasoline and your outdoor power equipment will last longer, run better and give you less headaches. Download the free app from pure-gas.org and you can find who is selling Ethanol free gas in your area."Stations

I would say that the guy quoted is covering a defect in the fuel delivery of Kawasaki engines and is incorrect about most things in that quote. Yes, ethanol added gasoline stores with more problems than a gasoline blended without but he is totally incorrect about blend rate, vapor locking, and engine build tolerances. This topic has been covered on this Forum and other places and there is a lot of misinformation about ethanol blended gas. The only tested and confirmed engine problems in the combustion of E-10, AFAIK, is in high power outboard marine engines. Your average small horse power lawn mower engines will perform normally as long as the gas is not allowed to sit in storage for longer than a month.

"Your average small horse power lawn mower engines will perform normally as long as the gas is not allowed to sit in storage for longer than a month."BingoSome may want ethanol free stations. If you dont, just move on.

I deal a lot with small engine and ATV repair shops locally. The guys at the shops state they see lots of problems related to the ethanol gas. I am sure most is related to gas setting to long in the tank but who hasn't left there chainsaw or snow blower setting around for a few months with gas in the tank. I have had problems in a generator, ATV and chainsaw from ethanol gas. I just purchased a Toy Hauler with a 35 gallon gas tank which also fuels the on board genny, my first stop was the 10 miles out of the way gas station that has a ethanol free pump. I will continure to pay $.20 more a gallon for ethanol free fuel to fill the fuel tank as I don't know how long the gas will set in the tank and its cheaper then dealing with genny problems.

No problem letting ethanol added gas sit in my MH's tank. Onboard generator fires right up everytime.

mena661 wrote:No problem letting ethanol added gas sit in my MH's tank. Onboard generator fires right up everytime.Water is heavier than gas so is at the bottom of the tank. Generator pickups are often raised up to the quarter full level so you can't run the main tank dry using the generator.

Ethanol in small engines | Good Sam Community

56 Replies

bigfootford
Nomad II
Sep 12, 2014
martipr wrote:
bigfootford wrote:
martipr wrote:
I am not taking up for ethanol and I fully believe that mpg goes down when using it, after all ethanol has much less energy content than gasoline. Just Google it for links.
What I question is if it actually causes damage. This thread is full of reports about tests or experiences but I don't see many links to an actual published report. About the only one is a Honda link and they say that 10% is OK.
Can anyone give a link to the reports from Mercury or any other or do we just take the poster's word for it.
This is a wonderful forum but it would be so much more so if posters provided documentation or at least said that it was only their opinion.

Just a simple search can show you a major reason that e10 can be a problem.

Storage is one...

Quote from a study "OSU"..... Select the ethanol fuel small engines. It's a pdf.

http://www.agmachinery.okstate.edu/engines/fuel

Therefore, E10 blends are generally considered non- corrosive and should not accelerate wear for newer engines (1995 and later). Examinations of manufacturer’s statements indicate that ethanol blends up to 10 percent (E10) are ac- cep table (5). Older engines may run a slight risk of degrada- tion of rubber, cork gaskets, and exposed magnesium and aluminum surfaces in the fuel system when using alcohol blends or highly aromatic modern fuels. Older engines may have other susceptibilities as well.

Don't you guys like a study like this and the bottom line says, " Older engines may run a slight risk of degrada- tion of rubber, cork gaskets, and exposed magnesium and aluminum surfaces in the fuel system when using alcohol blends or highly aromatic modern fuels. Older engines may have other susceptibilities as well."

It's like from the EPA down, not one will state the true facts.

I remember the day when the EPA and all the the Kings Horses said, " MTBE will not reduce the performance of your engine". HAWWWWWWW!

They did the same with E10.... So hell, do you think those folks will offer any facts that will upset their apple cart?

Global Warming included.

Jim

Seems to be a bad link????

Never have had a problem with posting a url but this one needs to be copied and then pasted in your address bar. Or just do a search for agmachinery.okstate.edu/engine/fuel.

http://www.agmachinery.okstate.edu

Will correct my orig post.

Thanks,

Jim
MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Sep 12, 2014
We are losing FOOD! Driving food prices up to Mars. Look at the cost of milk and butter. Look at the cost of a @#$%^&! bag of frozen corn! Beef.

This is stupidity on a scale that is embarrassing. It hurts. Making poor people poorer while the wealthy scramble to give up their citizenship.

Arise villagers! Arise!

Pitchforks! Torches! March to the evil castle on the hill. Don't forget the mallet and stake. Forget steak, you can't afford it...
JaxDad
Explorer III
Sep 12, 2014
The other issue is that all of the 'studies' are done under laboratory conditions, nor 'real world' conditions.

As I mentioned above, Ethanol is very hygroscopic, when mixed with gasoline it allows the gasoline to also (albeit to a lesser degree) allows the gasoline itself to become hygroscopic.

I've seen Goobermint test results of in ground tank samples showing an large quantities of WATER in solution in the gasoline.

When you add the losses, financially and energy-wise, of alcohol PLUS water, the end result can be a rubber-to-road power loss of 20% to 25% or more.
martipr
Explorer
Sep 12, 2014
bigfootford wrote:
martipr wrote:
I am not taking up for ethanol and I fully believe that mpg goes down when using it, after all ethanol has much less energy content than gasoline. Just Google it for links.
What I question is if it actually causes damage. This thread is full of reports about tests or experiences but I don't see many links to an actual published report. About the only one is a Honda link and they say that 10% is OK.
Can anyone give a link to the reports from Mercury or any other or do we just take the poster's word for it.
This is a wonderful forum but it would be so much more so if posters provided documentation or at least said that it was only their opinion.

Just a simple search can show you a major reason that e10 can be a problem.

Storage is one...

Quote from a study "OSU"..... Select the ethanol fuel small engines. It's a pdf.

http://www.agmachinery.okstate.edu/engines/fuel

Therefore, E10 blends are generally considered non- corrosive and should not accelerate wear for newer engines (1995 and later). Examinations of manufacturer’s statements indicate that ethanol blends up to 10 percent (E10) are ac- cep table (5). Older engines may run a slight risk of degrada- tion of rubber, cork gaskets, and exposed magnesium and aluminum surfaces in the fuel system when using alcohol blends or highly aromatic modern fuels. Older engines may have other susceptibilities as well.

Don't you guys like a study like this and the bottom line says, " Older engines may run a slight risk of degrada- tion of rubber, cork gaskets, and exposed magnesium and aluminum surfaces in the fuel system when using alcohol blends or highly aromatic modern fuels. Older engines may have other susceptibilities as well."

It's like from the EPA down, not one will state the true facts.

I remember the day when the EPA and all the the Kings Horses said, " MTBE will not reduce the performance of your engine". HAWWWWWWW!

They did the same with E10.... So hell, do you think those folks will offer any facts that will upset their apple cart?

Global Warming included.

Jim

Seems to be a bad link????
JaxDad
Explorer III
Sep 11, 2014
#43 wrote:
I wonder if aviation gas has ethanol? (rhetorical question) I guess if you're using ethanol blended fuel in the air or on large bodies of water it is considered to be less than ideal.

Wonder no more! Alcohol is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs and holds water in solution. Since the temperature drops as you climb, carb freezing is a serious issue.

Ethanol is a serious no-no when it comes to airplanes.
MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Sep 10, 2014
Gobbledygook 101

Want to read a bunch of data that in essence says nothing relevant? This is the class of psychobabble that out politicians lapped up. In 5 minutes of debate I could rip the shorts off of this so-called "scholar" and leave his carcass for the crows to gnaw on. Note the lavish inclusion of assumptive conclusions but minus reference links. Note the lavish inclusion of links to other "scholarly" works that when traced lead nowhere - they vanish like will-o-the-wisps. This is utter hocus pocus. Yet I have to pay for it. I am not, folks, a happy camper...

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/150964/2/Brazil%20ethanol%20~%20Pouliot.pdf

Someone asked for links. Well I'll give you so many links leading to hysterically funny balderdash you'll swear you've morphed into a section of cyclone fence...
bigfootford
Nomad II
Sep 10, 2014
martipr wrote:
I am not taking up for ethanol and I fully believe that mpg goes down when using it, after all ethanol has much less energy content than gasoline. Just Google it for links.
What I question is if it actually causes damage. This thread is full of reports about tests or experiences but I don't see many links to an actual published report. About the only one is a Honda link and they say that 10% is OK.
Can anyone give a link to the reports from Mercury or any other or do we just take the poster's word for it.
This is a wonderful forum but it would be so much more so if posters provided documentation or at least said that it was only their opinion.

Just a simple search can show you a major reason that e10 can be a problem.

Storage is one...

Quote from a study "OSU"..... Select the ethanol fuel small engines. It's a pdf.

You have to either type the url into your address bar or copy and paste this address:

www.agmachinery.okstate.edu/engines/fuel

This one will not work for some reason:

http://www.agmachinery.okstate.edu/engines/fuel

Therefore, E10 blends are generally considered non- corrosive and should not accelerate wear for newer engines (1995 and later). Examinations of manufacturer’s statements indicate that ethanol blends up to 10 percent (E10) are ac- cep table (5). Older engines may run a slight risk of degrada- tion of rubber, cork gaskets, and exposed magnesium and aluminum surfaces in the fuel system when using alcohol blends or highly aromatic modern fuels. Older engines may have other susceptibilities as well.

Don't you guys like a study like this and the bottom line says, " Older engines may run a slight risk of degrada- tion of rubber, cork gaskets, and exposed magnesium and aluminum surfaces in the fuel system when using alcohol blends or highly aromatic modern fuels. Older engines may have other susceptibilities as well."

It's like from the EPA down, not one will state the true facts.

I remember the day when the EPA and all the the Kings Horses said, " MTBE will not reduce the performance of your engine". HAWWWWWWW!

They did the same with E10.... So hell, do you think those folks will offer any facts that will upset their apple cart?

Global Warming included.

Jim
_43
Explorer
Sep 10, 2014
I wonder if aviation gas has ethanol? (rhetorical question) I guess if you're using ethanol blended fuel in the air or on large bodies of water it is considered to be less than ideal.
azrving
Explorer
Sep 10, 2014
One statement by the EPA but we may not find reports by the system that mandates it.

Tractor Supply

EPA

Problems can still occur on 10%

Contaminated fuel beyond consumers control

Up close

Bell Performance

NBC News

Briggs & Stratton

Clark

On and On
martipr
Explorer
Sep 10, 2014
I am not taking up for ethanol and I fully believe that mpg goes down when using it, after all ethanol has much less energy content than gasoline. Just Google it for links.
What I question is if it actually causes damage. This thread is full of reports about tests or experiences but I don't see many links to an actual published report. About the only one is a Honda link and they say that 10% is OK.
Can anyone give a link to the reports from Mercury or any other or do we just take the poster's word for it.
This is a wonderful forum but it would be so much more so if posters provided documentation or at least said that it was only their opinion.