GFI Problem

Does anyone have a circuit diagram for a Surge Guard? Does it switch the neutral and/or ground leads when connecting and disconnecting?

Golly! First of all, the situation and what I will be doing to solve.

When I first plug in to the GFI outlet (any GFI), the outlet does NOT trip. That would indicate that all is fine through the cord, adaptors and plugs up to the Surge Guard. It is only after the 2 and a half minute delay when the Surge Guard allows the power to flow through does the GFI trip.

I will first unplug all appliances and disconnect all AC devices including the Water heater (on its own breaker), refrigerator, and converter. I have no transfer switch.

If that fails to solve I will proceed to bypass the Surge Guard which might have some leakage, by putting jumpers around the unit to allow voltage to flow to the coach immediately, without the delay. If I get the GFI trip then I have eliminated the Surge Guard as a problem.

I will then proceed to remove the neutrals one at a time to attempt an isolation to a specific circuit. It is my hope that I should find the problem this way.

I have really enjoyed reading all the suggestions and expertise here and have learned more than I thought. For instance, I did not know that a neutral to ground would trip a ground fault.

Mandalay Parr wrote:
On one I helped fix a while back, the white and green wires were connected to the same buss bar at the power distribution panel.

This isn't all that uncommon. I've seen it also. My gen is wired that way (can't be changed) and my home-made automatic transfer switch switches the neutral as well as the hot lead. When running on the gen, the ground and neutral are connected. When running off shore power, they are separate.

Hondavalk wrote:
Wow you can learn something new every day. Had to see for myself and jumped the neutral and ground on a energized GFI and it tripped. :S

Amazing, isn't it? I was just as surprised when I first saw it.

Also I agree with Chris and would start with the surge procetor.

Ditto - that's a good place to start.

Perhaps my posts seemed insensitive. They weren't meant that way. It came as a surprise to me when I first learned that a GFCI would trip without a load. I was originally taught that you needed current flow on the hot lead to get it to trip since that current is what is compared to the neutral current.

The point I was making was just that the GFCI on the pedestal (assuming it's at all modern, and almost all are) will trip if there's a short between the ground and neutral at any point after the pedestal. Turning off the master breaker in the RV panel won't stop the pedestal GFCI from tripping. That GFCI has power and turning off the RV breakers won't tell you if the short is before or after the RV panel.

Clearly the GFCI has to have power to trip, so you won't see GFCI's mounted in the RV panel trip if the master is off, but I thought the OP was getting pedestal tripping. That's the most common scenario.

On one I helped fix a while back, the white and green wires were connected to the same buss bar at the power distribution panel.

ken white wrote:

Bobbo wrote:
...Ummmm, the GFCI outlet has power. It is on the pedestal...

I know, I never said it didn't...

OK. I never thought it was necessary to say that an electrical appliance won't work if it isn't plugged in. Especially when the OP's is plugged in and operating properly.

My bad, sorry.

Bobbo wrote:
...Ummmm, the GFCI outlet has power. It is on the pedestal...

I know, I never said it didn't...

Wow you can learn something new every day. Had to see for myself and jumped the neutral and ground on a energized GFI and it tripped. :S
Also I agree with Chris and would start with the surge procetor.

ken white wrote:

DryCamper11 wrote:
Bobbo is right. A modern GFCI will trip even if there's no power on the hot lead. Many of us were taught that the GFCI compares the current going through the hot lead with the return current through the neutral and would trip if they aren't the same. Older GFCI's did that, so if there was no hot current, it wouldn't trip. Newer GFCIs are smarter and will trip if there's no load. You can try it. Stick some wire into neutral and ground on a GFCI socket and the GFCI trips. I've done it. That's what happens. If you do it, make sure you know what's neutral and what's hot !!!!!

I wondered why and got this answer:
"GFCIs contain a second toroid coil which induces a small current in the H and N wires at 120Hz. If the N and G are touching on the load side of the GFCI, there is current flow back through the main panel N-G connection; the sensing coil recognizes this as an imbalance between the H and N and trips the device. "
So, Bobbo is right. You have to disconnect the neutrals (or unplug devices, which disconnects the neutral at the plug). Turning off breakers tells you almost nothing.

Your quoted answer is correct, however, your assertion is not.

The torriod transformer needs a voltage present to test for a shorted neutral-ground wire when no load is present - no current flow.

No hot wire power, and no GFCI...

Test your theory with an uninstalled GFCI and short the ground and neutral together and tell me what happens...

Ummmm, the GFCI outlet has power. It is on the pedestal.

Chris Bryant wrote:
Personally, I would suspect the surge guard. I would start by disconnecting the output of it and see what happens.

You have a point. My procedure above will point in that direction though. If he disconnects all neutrals and it still trips, it points to between the Surge Guard input and breaker panel. That would include the Surge Guard, itself. If the Surge Guard is easier to access than the NEUTRALS, then test that first. That hurts nothing, but gives you less information.