Interior space heating improvements

The CPSA tested "heaters" in a 100 cubic foot hermetically sealed environment with various air exchange ratios cited as examples. Somehow I failed to find the BTU rating of the devices under test. Without ALL the components of the test made available the exercise is of little value.

My own personal test involved the use of a pair of CO detectors, one placed above the heater and to the side (3H and 2aside)

The 2nd device was a recording pulse oximeter with adjustable alarm.

I used an 8,000 BTU Olympian heater set on high in a 30' trailer. One kitchen window was cracked 1/2" a second window was cracked 1/2" in my bedroom.

Neither CO alarm sounded, nor was there any perceptible difference in blood O2 levels in a 2-week period, using the LPG heater versus induction heating. The pulse oximeter at the time was fabulously expensive, so I arbitrarily "extended" my sleep apnea testing from 5-days to 14 days. The HMO wasn't very happy about it but this was done for scholastic purposes. CO2 meters remain beyond my budget. But CO2 only kills when it displaces O2. CO is a different story.

BLOOD has a HUNDRED TIMES the affinity for CO as it does for O2. Play it safe, and play it smart. These days, a alarm recording pulse oximeter costs peanuts and you can do this test yourself. CO alarms are not expensive. But I myself would not rely on just one.

All catalytic heaters - in fact, all propane heaters - emit water vapor and CO2. The more of this you remove, the better. Some may also emit CO, and you won't know until the sensor goes off (if it does).

I would love to eliminate the propane stove - because it steals my oxygen, my head can feel it - but with the induction stove I would need a lot bigger solar farm. Nah, will better make an outdoor kitchen :)...

Hi ICamel,

Exposure time for me would not be a measly 6.5 hours. It would be 24/7 using a wave type non vented heater.

Your original post said "no CO". That is incorrect. As to safe levels, that depends on where you look.

Here is one reliable source.

"As CO levels increase and remain above 70 ppm, symptoms may become more noticeable (headache, fatigue, nausea). As CO levels increase above 150 to 200 ppm, disorientation, unconsciousness, and death are possible."

In other words, even exposure below 70 ppm can make you good and sick. At 125 it is a good bet that there will be side effects.

I will not use an unvented combustion heater. I prefer to use an electric induction cooker instead of the propane stove top.

For the reasons above, I also will not sleep with a generator running.

The Platinum Cat works well, has a thermostat and is safe. Why would anyone try to save the cost of a tank of fuel in a class A to use anything that is not vented?

ICamel wrote:
Don:
...For every instance of someone encountering carbon monoxide poisoning there are literally thousands...that have not been poisoned using catalytic heaters. Yes, they do put out a small amount of CO....

Icamel, you said;

ICamel wrote:
Wave Catalytic Heaters....No carbon monoxide to deal with. No smell. No noise....

which was wrong. Now you start talking about ventilation. Why does it need ventilated if there is no CO output?

Not trying to beat on you, but there are naive people who will see a statement like you made originally and believe it without checking.

deleted

Don:
Congratulations on your daughter being a survivor. For every instance of someone encountering carbon monoxide poisoning there are literally thousands (as evidenced by the number sold) that have not been poisoned using catalytic heaters. Yes, they do put out a small amount of CO, but levels that are not a threat to human life when used safely, and levels less than encountered naturally.

Most CO problems are encountered by not having sufficient outside ventilation to keep oxygen levels at acceptable levels. I keep two or three windows cracked open about 1/2 to 3/4 inch to allow enough oxygen replenishment for what is burned by the catalytic heater without negatively impacting the inside temperature.

With regard to moisture, yes there will be some but the window drains take care of that for me. It is not unusual to find rivulets of frozen water on the outside skin frame of my RV and icicles hanging off the bottom edges.

If one does not feel safe using a catalytic heater in their RV then by all means they should not.

Happy camping!

http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/103972/CO03.pdf

Here are the full conclusions of the report you and I both cited.
The following is a summary of CPSC staff’s findings on the testing of the catalytic heater:
· The peak CO concentration ranged from 68 ppm to 125 ppm and the steady state CO concentration ranged from 67 ppm to 109 ppm. Assuming a limited exposure time of up to 6.5 hours at these CO concentrations, the catalytic heater does not appear to pose a serious CO hazard to healthy adults when the CO concentration is considered by itself.
· When the catalytic heater was operated in a closed room (ACH ~ 0), the oxygen was depleted from an ambient concentration of 20.9 percent to 8.8 percent. Because the catalytic heater can deplete the O2 concentration to such low levels, the heater poses a serious risk of hypoxia. The degree of hypoxia is further exacerbated by the moderate CO concentration and by an increase in the carbon dioxide concentration that accompanied the depletion of oxygen.
· As the oxygen decreased in the chamber, the catalytic heater became less effective at converting the propane and oxygen to carbon dioxide and water vapor. This was reflected by an increase in the hydrocarbon concentration in the chamber, which ranged from 1,050 ppm to 13,440 ppm (5 to 64 percent of the lower explosion limit of propane in air). The unreacted propane further increases the degree of hypoxia.
· The heater’s catalyst did not appear to degrade over time. This observation is based on operating two identical heaters on 100 disposable 1-pound bottles of propane (approximately 650 hours).

I might have to start making a new Sportsman model heater like the 20 yr. old one in my rig. It is basically a gas ring inside a tin can with regulator, pilot flame, and 3" vent. It is rated 20K output and uses no electricity. It is now heating it's third RV and will cook you out if left above medium or low, even at the most extreme temperatures.

Hi ICamel,

Let me start by saying my daughter is a CO survivor.

The combustion products from all hydrocarbon combustion heaters include water. They also include CO.

From the article referenced below:

"The peak CO concentration ranged from 68 ppm to 125 ppm and the steady state CO concentration ranged from 67 ppm to 109 ppm."

and

"When the catalytic heater was operated in a closed room (ACH ~ 0), the oxygen was depleted from an ambient concentration of 20.9 percent to 8.8 percent. Because the catalytic heater can deplete the O2 concentration to such low levels, the heater poses a serious risk of hypoxia."

http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/103972/CO03.pdf

ICamel wrote:
PROVE IT!

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

WRONG.

Plus moisture build up.

ICamel wrote:
Wave Catalytic Heaters. No carbon monoxide to deal with.

Platinum Cat meets all your criteria. It's more expensive than Wave or similar Ebay brand (called Cozy-something) that work on the same catalytic principle, but it is vented and has a thermostat. The only vented small catalytic heater that I know. Vented means that humidity and - most importantly - CO, are removed to the outside. You could arrange a "poor man's venting" for non-vented heater by keeping roof vents or windows open, but this would also steal some heat. Forced venting of Platinum is more efficient.

2 things you should keep in mind about Platinum Cat:
1) It has no legs. Though, most installs are wall-mounted anyway. The one on the photos with added legs and long exhaust tube is their 2nd Cat, while the 1st one is mounted permanently in basement of 5-er.
2) There are different kits for exhaust - through the wall, or with tube, and with what shape and material register on the outside.

Platinum is on my list for this summer. It does get cold in in the night in South in winter, be it in Mexico or on the US side. In a camper you might get away with 3000 BTU model, but I'll need 5000.

Platinum does have a kind of a "remote" - wall thermostat running on AA batteries. You do need a thermostat. "Wave" I think has no thermostat. In that Ebay model there is a switch on the main unit that lets you run either one burner or two, depending on how much heat you want, but thermostat is more convenient.

All catalytic heaters should be protected from dust. Nice cover that you will see people made on some photos, is not for esthetics but to protect the catalytic burner from dust when not in use.

PROVE IT!

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

WRONG.

Plus moisture build up.

ICamel wrote:
Wave Catalytic Heaters. No carbon monoxide to deal with.