Lithium Storage Battery Shelf Life ?

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
What happens when air conditioning sucks five horsepower's worth of battery? The energy to spin a condenser cooling fan will not come from magic?

The air takes 5 to 10 percent of the capacity depending on conditions and settings.
No performance issues, just less range.

No effect on shelf life.

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
What happens when air conditioning sucks five horsepower's worth of battery? The energy to spin a condenser cooling fan will not come from magic?

Hey Mex. How’s it going. I may not be understanding your question but are you asking what happens when the heat pump is in AC mode. Well, nothing happens from the point of view of the driver. The car still has the same amount of power etc. The car displays what amount of power is being used for the HVAC system and gives you a recalculated max range based on you recent driving etc. Our car shows anywhere from 300 to 1500 Watts used by the Heat pump depending on what the temp differential is etc. Let’s say a 10 to 15 percent reduction in range. Is that what you are asking?

What happens when air conditioning sucks five horsepower's worth of battery? The energy to spin a condenser cooling fan will not come from magic?

brulaz wrote:

Almot wrote:

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
I've not read anything about lithium storage batteries decomposition. When stored in an optimum maintenance fashion.

5-6 years if stored with 50-70% charge, room temps.

Then they go to Li battery heaven (= dumpster). Or you keep using it with diminished capacity until it really croaks.

I understand that auto lithium batteries are finished when they reach 70% or so of max capacity. Then they can possibly be reused as home or grid storage modules for a while, or perhaps as RV batteries?

But eventually they are recycled or trashed. As fresh mined Lithium from S. America is cheap, it's usually not economical to recover that. There may be other metals though. The variable chemistry of Li batteries is an issue in recycling. If there are no other economically recyclable metals, the battery is shredded and landfilled.

Apparently if there is any chance of a charge left in the battery, they first freeze it in liquid nitrogen, then bust it apart.

With regards to a car, it depends on the persons needs. The original 2010/11 leafs had about 80 miles of range so 70 percent would be about 55 miles. That may be fine for some using as a grocery getter or maybe a 20 or 30 mile work commute. In that case one could run it out for many years more. This is even more obvious with something like a Tesla with 320 miles of range. At 70 percent it’s range will have dropped to 220 miles (or twice what my leafs range is). Obviously one could accept much greater battery degradation with bigger battery’s. However with a Tesla at this point, independant testing estimates the battery at 80 percent capacity after 520,000 miles so the rest of the car will wear out long before the battery. This is not as good with the original Leaf batteries. In high heat (read Phoenix) situations the 2010 thru 2012 batteries were seeing 30 percent degradation in 3 years. However in normal temps some leafs with the original battery are seeing north of 140,000 miles in taxi service on the west coast and still at 80 percent capacity. A lot has to do with the climate they are in, the specific chemistry of the build, number of cycles etc.

On a personal note, we have noticed very little change in either of our cars ranges after two years. We however live in a cooler climate.

If you want to read some tech stuff here you go. Keep in mind it's the LFP data which we're talking about and in the aging they are using A123 batteries which I believe is top of the line. But I could be mistaken.
http://m.jes.ecsdl.org/content/163/9/A1872.full

Almot wrote:

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
I've not read anything about lithium storage batteries decomposition. When stored in an optimum maintenance fashion.

5-6 years if stored with 50-70% charge, room temps.

Then they go to Li battery heaven (= dumpster). Or you keep using it with diminished capacity until it really croaks.

I understand that auto lithium batteries are finished when they reach 70% or so of max capacity. Then they can possibly be reused as home or grid storage modules for a while, or perhaps as RV batteries?

But eventually they are recycled or trashed. As fresh mined Lithium from S. America is cheap, it's usually not economical to recover that. There may be other metals though. The variable chemistry of Li batteries is an issue in recycling. If there are no other economically recyclable metals, the battery is shredded and landfilled.

Apparently if there is any chance of a charge left in the battery, they first freeze it in liquid nitrogen, then bust it apart.

Almot wrote:

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
I've not read anything about lithium storage batteries decomposition. When stored in an optimum maintenance fashion.

5-6 years if stored with 50-70% charge, room temps.

Then they go to Li battery heaven (= dumpster). Or you keep using it with diminished capacity until it really croaks.

Wouldn’t throw them in a dumpster. Consider taking them (like any battery) to a recycling centre for proper disposal.

Almot wrote:

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
I've not read anything about lithium storage batteries decomposition. When stored in an optimum maintenance fashion.

5-6 years if stored with 50-70% charge, room temps.

Then they go to Li battery heaven (= dumpster). Or you keep using it with diminished capacity until it really croaks.

Any real documentation so we all can see?

Just a couple of days ago I was reading a thread elsewhere of a LFP battery being stored for a couple of years I believe. He was testing it and had start readings and misc through time and was showing very little performance lose. For the life of me I can't find it now, it was posted in the middle of a different thread. Maybe I'll come across it again, it was over in the solarpaneltalk in the battery section.
There is a lot of sifting through on the internet about LFP that sometimes the bs becomes folklore.

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
I've not read anything about lithium storage batteries decomposition. When stored in an optimum maintenance fashion.

5-6 years if stored with 50-70% charge, room temps.

Then they go to Li battery heaven (= dumpster). Or you keep using it with diminished capacity until it really croaks.

Storage temperature matters for Lithium batteries, I am not sure what optimal is, but it is closer to refrigerator temperature than air conditioner temperature