Forum Discussion
- SalvoExplorerWhen using a pwm controller, panel amps are either zero or full-on. Full-on would be the max current the panel can output given the irradiance conditions. Likewise, battery charging current is either zero or full-on.
Average current is dependent on the pwm duty cycle. If full-on current is 10A and duty cycle is 50%, then average current is 5A.
The rms current for a 10Apeak, 50% duty cycle is 7.07A. It would be incorrect referring to rms current is this instance.smkettner wrote:
PWM controller, the panel and battery amps are the same. - red31Exploreremail to MS support
Do MPPT controllers go into PWM during absorption or float, ie is there a duty cycle (on/off) or does the panel operate at the far left of a IV curve?
REPLY
The MPPT controller does open.close switches to limit current out in order to hold a specified regulation voltage.
Technical Support Services Manager - red31Explorermy controller tapers amps by increasing the OFF (open circuit) time.
panel voltage seems to rise since it is spending more and more time @ Voc (~20v, zero amps, no power). As the power requirement to maintain a batt V declines, more and more time OFF/open circuit, decreased duty cycle. - NinerBikesExplorer
MrWizard wrote:
red31 wrote:
MrWizard wrote:
...OUCH
ain't that one of the controller's job, to limit panel energy production when it is not 'needed'.
controllers JOB .. is to control Voltage
the amount of current in the circuit is a function of voltage/resistance
as the battery charges, it's internal resistance increases, so current flow will drop, increasing to voltage to set limit allows the battery to keep accepting charge current
the OP asked if the 7amps being shown on the controller was all the batteries would take, or what the panels were putting out
the answer is YES to both questions
it is NOT an either or situation
it is "that is it" situation
it might be the middle of the day, and the batteries nearly fully charged, so that is ALL they will accept (aka all that battery resistance will let flow thru the circuit into the batteries) so that IS what the panels are putting out , until the circuit resistance changes, by turning on some power using device (aka load), when another load is added, circuit resistance is lowered and current increases up until it reaches the limit that the Solar can provide
or the other possibility is that the batteries are Not yet charged, but the sun is low and that is all the solar panels can produce, and the batteries are taking all of it
but it is still the same answer
yes that is what the panels are producing, yes that is what the batteries are getting
example
in the morning, my batteries are low (all eight of them) and can easily accept over 100amps
but the solar conditions can only supply a few amps, and that is what the controller will show
i can start the generator put my clamp on meter on the converter charge wires and read over 100 amps
the solar will still show the same few amps because the batteries can take all that can be supplied, and that is all the solar can produce until the sun gets higher, as the sun gets higher the solar increases until it reaches the limit the solar can produce or the limit that the batteries can accept,
but what ever is on the meter IS what is being produced and going to the system, it is voltage vrs resistance
and the meter will change reading every time the fridge cycles something is turned on or off
I have observed this time and time again, with my RC watt meter in line, it is correct. Doesn't matter if your solar panel or panels make 8 amps, or 800 amps, if it's a lead acid battery or a AGM battery, it is correct.
It might be considerably different with a Lithium ion battery, only because Li batteries have so little internal resistance to slow the charging rate in amps being taken on down from what the the solar panels are capable of producing, until perhaps the last 1 or 2% of charge being added to the Li battery. Of course, it's very very hard on Li batteries to continually charge them to 100%, it shortens their life greatly.
Generally speaking, if the state of charge of your battery is somewhere between 30% SOC and 80-85% SOC, unless you have a huge overcapacity of solar panels, in most engineered systems, your batteries are going to take all that your solar panels are capable of producing.
By the time mid to late afternoon comes around, your batteries, on a normal sunny day, with no clouds, might be getting close to topped off, and then your amps will start dropping, as the battery resistance goes up, closer and closer to full charge. It's this resistance that makes solar panels so much better at saving you money top charging, vs burning all that gas with the generator to get to a top charge. - red31ExplorerPWM, the panel makes full power when ON, the ON time is limited so a batt V is not exceeded. Without turning off, the battery would overcharge.
The tapering of current is forced by the on/off. - ktmrfsExplorer IIPWM controller, once the battery and other loads won't take full panel output current go into a pulse mode. Voltage waveform goes between something above Vbat and 0V with a varying duty cycle. AFAIK, the readout displays the RMS equivalent current into the load. If you look at it with a scope it will be a voltage going between about 13V and ground with a varying duty cycle. If you look at it with a current probe, you would see a very simlar waveform.
If you look at it with a voltmeter in current mode that has a AC or DC mode, you will see different readouts as well. AC true rms will read very close to the morningstar readout. DC will read near 0, there is almost no DC current flow. Been there, done that. At least my Tek RMS meter matches, and it is a well calibrated wide frequency response RMS volt/current converter. - MrWizardModeratorsmkettner
correct,
but .. opposing potential is "effectively" a resistance to circuit operation
its the voltage difference between the two (power source vrs battery) that allows the current to flow into the battery
and, an RV wiring circuit has many "resistance" loads that get paralleled with the batteries
much less complicated and easier to understand, to explain it as resistance - AlmotExplorer IIIDon, the OP has PWM. Current in = current out.
With MPPT there would be wattage in = wattage out, but his is not MPPT. MrWizard wrote:
as the battery charges, it's internal resistance increases, so current flow will drop, increasing to voltage to set limit allows the battery to keep accepting charge current
This always gets to me. Voltage potential of the battery increases as it charges. Eventually the potential matches the supply and current stops except for the power lost to electrolysis.
Actual resistance is lowest when fully charged and increases as it discharges. Pure water (discharged) is a relatively poor conductor vs 30% acid solution with many available ions is far more conductive(charged). And yes the two (voltage potential & resistance) interact together as a battery charges and discharges to create the natural absorption rate for charging or voltage drop during discharge.
There is a resistance graph in Battery University website if I need to dig it up.
And I understand the layman's term of increasing resistance is easier at times to explain the process.- pianotunaNomad IIIHi,
I'd agree if you are measuring watts. But as you know, there are MPPT controllers out there so amps is a bit of a movable feast. Watts coming in from panels go into the controller and watts coming out of the controller go to the battery bank and any loads. While in storage the parasitic load is the self discharge rate of the battery bank.MrWizard wrote:
the OP asked if the 7amps being shown on the controller was all the batteries would take, or what the panels were putting out
the answer is YES to both questions
it is NOT an either or situation
it is "that is it" situation
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