Newer designed inverters

Oooooooo show me...
A high frequency inverter that can take the abuse of a transformer inverter. Are there boxes and dumpsters full of Samlex 300 watt inverters? Outback, tossed "outback"?

"SCREEEEREEEEEeeeeeeeee poof!" Is the national anthem of high frequency inverters. The technology for hybrid inverters has been around for a long time. The ultra-high voltage DC power transmission lines prove it. But manufacturing a solid state 10X boost inverter there's the rub. I've enough experience working on 150 volt 75 cell DC to AC inverters 150vdc - 120vac to know they have been around for decades. It's the daisy chain vulnerabality that imhibits the concept. 200 lumems/watt LEDs are around-the-corner as well. Wuwee pack a lunch if you want to see the corner. It's a dream - a goal. But I stay aware that innovation is extremely vulnerable to hyperbole.

theoldwizard1 wrote:

atreis wrote:
There is almost always better technology available than the technology that we actually buy and use. COST is usually the limiting factor, not technological capability.

But that is my point ! Many (most?) of the top quality inverters on the market are using technology that is >10 years old. There is no need for huge transformers and modern Power MOSFETs limit the losses due to heating. These things REDUCE cost and improve efficiency.

If it were cheaper they would be using it (and charging everyone the same amount). Companies like higher profit margins.

theoldwizard1 wrote:

atreis wrote:
5000W 12V input inverters - not impossible - not even hard. That's 427 amps at 12V.

IMHO anyone wanting to run a 5000W inverter off of 12VDC is nuts ! Somewhere around 2000W, you should be using 24VDC. Above 4000W, 48VDC.

While I agree in principal (and most every circumstance), there are reasons one might not want to go that route.

With 48V, you have to add batteries in groups of 4. With 24V, in groups of 2. (Assuming 12V batteries. If using 6V, then it would 8 and 4. If using 2V, it would be 24 and 12.) Sticking with 12V, while generally not the best approach, is the most flexible.

Another reason would be that the system was built (by someone else) as a 12V system with a (say) 2KW inverter, and one wants to upgrade the top end capacity in order to better support a load that doesn't run very often or for very long (see previous example of a well pump) without changing anything else.

Hi,

1293.42 at Imarine.

The switched power supply units with tiny transformers (or perhaps no transformer?) seem to work well when they are MSW. They don't do quite so well when looking at PSW.

theoldwizard1 wrote:

That MagnaSine MS2012 at $1647 is "economically unfeasible" for many consumers.

Here is a description right from Xantrex as they make both types: http://www.xantrex.com/documents/tech-doctor/universal/tech-universal_10_1.pdf

SLEEK AND LIGHT...OR BIG AND HEAVY?
First, what might you assume if you saw two
1000W inverters and one is a sparse 16 lbs.,
sleek with a low profile … while the other is
a large, 50 lbs. heavyweight in a sheet metal
box? Might you conclude that the smaller,
lightweight version represents “newer
technology,” or would you think it’s cheaper,
disposable and lower quality than the heavier
weight competitor?
Take it from Tech Doctor: in Inverter World,
size and packaging can be very deceiving!
Without understanding the distinctions of
each, you may make some inaccurate
assumptions based on your preconceived
notions. In our example, you may be looking
at a low-frequency inverter and comparing it
to a high-frequency inverter. The standard
constant rate output will likely be identical on
both, but there will be some differences in
operation outside the normal wattage
output.
Low-frequency inverters use high-speed
switches to invert (or change) the DC to AC,
but drive these switches at the same
frequency as the AC sine wave which is 60
Hz (60 times per second). This requires the inverter’s transformer to work a bit harder,
plus demands it to be larger and heavier, thus
the result is a bigger, beefier package.
High-frequency models typically drive the
switches at a frequency closer to 50 KHz
(50,000 times per second) or higher, thus
allowing for a smaller, more efficient
transformer and overall smaller package.
However, that efficiency comes with a price.
High-frequency inverters typically surge at a
lower rate, or for shorter periods of time
than its low-frequency counterparts.
The moral of this example is straightforward:
don’t make quick assumptions based solely
on size and shape. Take the time to get the
facts, compare the differences and then
make an educated analysis.

Yes the magnum 2012 cost
And so will your new smaller SUPER inverter
Until this wishful device can bridge the divide and cost somewhere reasonable in between, the two extremes, it is NOT going to be produced

That is the point you keep waltzing around

Nobody said copper was cheap

You are the one that said Mfg could make these new better devices cheaper than the current big boys in the inverter market do
Yet this device is not in production, not for sale

If a superior product can be produce for less costs, Mfg will do this
All this software design and thermal control takes $$

jharrell wrote:
All the high capacity low voltage inverters for mobile use considered "high quality" (Magnum, Victron, Xantrex) seem to be LF designs, there must be some advantage to it for that application.

I have to admit, they are proven designs !

If they still have a customer base at that price point, more power to them.

All the high capacity low voltage inverters for mobile use considered "high quality" (Magnum, Victron, Xantrex) seem to be LF designs, there must be some advantage to it for that application.

The only place I have seen HF inverters in common use is grid tied solar, using high voltage arrays and no real need to support surge capacity since the grid is there for that. My dads 7kw array runs 300v to a SMA HF inverter with 97% effciency, but with the grid down it only has a 1500w emergency output on it. It's a beautiful thing seeing it hit 6+kw in full sun.

MrWizard wrote:
The newer tech is not cheaper, therefore it will not be used ...

WOW ! That is a pretty "broad brush" statement with no data to back it up !

That is a HUGE transformer in that MS2012. Copper is not cheap. and 20 MOSFETS to drive that amount of copper?!!! Those MOSFETs are likely wired in parallel (10 per side), so if one goes out, the other 9 have to pick up the load. Not likely that ehy can handle that and I'll bet the ?processor can't shut it down fast enough !!

MrWizard wrote:
And what do you think people use large inverters for
It's not for the tv set

It's for the MW , induction cooking, coffee maker, freezer, fridge, well pump..etc..

I understand that. The modern designs rely on higher frequencies to handle large start up loads.

MrWizard wrote:
Why don't you design and build this new small high powered inverter and bring it to market for a price 'we members' will pay

The basic designs are DONE, even to the board level. What is missing is a "supervisor" board and a lot of software. Thermal design, design and manufacturing (even out sourced manufacturing) is beyond my capabilities.

MrWizard wrote:
Only not economically feasible

That MagnaSine MS2012 at $1647 is "economically unfeasible" for many consumers.

The newer tech is not cheaper, therefore it will not be used

And what do you think people use large inverters for

It's not for the tv set

It's for the MW , induction cooking, coffee maker, freezer, fridge, well pump..etc..

Items with large surge high startup currents,
A transformer and capacitors supply that EMF needed for that surge current
Something not so easy to get from solid state only, and there is the reliability factor

Why don't you design and build this new small high powered inverter and bring it to market for a price 'we members' will pay

There is a divide between technical possibility and real life economics
It has to be economically feasible and profitable to get Mfg

Your op was why don't Mfg make some thing like this
That question ha been answered several times
But you insist on arguing it is technically possible
Nobody is saying it's not technically possible
Only not economically feasible

Doesn't a LF inverter with monster transformer like my Magnum 3000 typically have greater surge capability than a HF design? Mine could start my Coleman 15k BTU ac with 70 LRA most of the time without any help although it did complain, now with a soft start no problem.

Magnum doesn't seem lacking in technology, doing full load support and fully programmable charging for all types of batteries. It has a peak efficiency of 90% (The 24v version is at 94%).

I am currently monitoring it over wifi using some software I wrote to decode its rs485 protocol, it updates at 10hz on the bus it shares along with the battery monitor that updates at 2-3hz with battery voltage at 2 decimals places and shunt current.

Here is a great video of repairing a non hybrid one that gives you an ideas of its internals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-1OSFPHi04


What do you think primitive design?