Rechargeable Lithium Battery Link

Harvey51 wrote:
I had decided to buy another drill/driver set to get two new batteries for $99. I kind of had it in the back of my mind that with four batteries, I might get two failures and a repair by moving a good cell from one to the other.

Anyhow, one last call to Ryobi, explaining how their warranty is nonexistent in my area got to a sympathetic ear and she is sending me a new battery. They were out of the low end ones, so I get a higher capacity one instead. I promised to send the old one back, which will probably cost $30. No receipt needed because the date of manufacture is in the battery serial number. Now why can't they do this at Home Depot and avoid the cost of mailing both ways?

I would guess that the Mfg. requires the unit to be delivered to a service center that is authorized. There are a couple in Alberta for Ryobi.

DSchmidt_2000 wrote:

Sold to the public all the time at your local hobby store.
See my post above for a link to a place that sells a lot of different ones, even has a US distribution office.

(I've bought many packs and single cells from the above place for my RC toys and electronics hobby/profession)

I sit corrected.

I had decided to buy another drill/driver set to get two new batteries for $99. I kind of had it in the back of my mind that with four batteries, I might get two failures and a repair by moving a good cell from one to the other.

Anyhow, one last call to Ryobi, explaining how their warranty is nonexistent in my area got to a sympathetic ear and she is sending me a new battery. They were out of the low end ones, so I get a higher capacity one instead. I promised to send the old one back, which will probably cost $30. No receipt needed because the date of manufacture is in the battery serial number. Now why can't they do this at Home Depot and avoid the cost of mailing both ways?

DSchmidt_2000 wrote:

mena661 wrote:
You won't be able to buy Lithium Polymer cells. AFAIK, no one sells those to the public

Sold to the public all the time at your local hobby store.
See my post above for a link to a place that sells a lot of different ones, even has a US distribution office.
(I've bought many packs and single cells from the above place for my RC toys and electronics hobby/profession)

exactly.. I use them on RC planes, helicopters, and big ones on the Hex Copter weighing over a pound. They are great for very high current draws but are very touchy on how they want to be charged and how far they want to be discharged. There are lots of YouTube videos of them catching fire during a reasonable 1C charge cycle, and you don't want to be near them when this happens.

mena661 wrote:
You won't be able to buy Lithium Polymer cells. AFAIK, no one sells those to the public

Sold to the public all the time at your local hobby store.
See my post above for a link to a place that sells a lot of different ones, even has a US distribution office.

(I've bought many packs and single cells from the above place for my RC toys and electronics hobby/profession)

Harvey51 wrote:

gdetrailer, those cautions for Lithium batteries are beyond reasonable! Do you remove the battery from your cell phone when it is not in use? I replaced the one in my iPhone, no trouble at all.

Cell phones, laptops and cars have battery management systems that do cell balancing and prevent overcharging and overdischarging. And those also require cooling. A standalone LI cell has none of that. You need a BMS with LI cells. See the DIY EV forums on how to do this. You won't be able to buy Lithium Polymer cells. AFAIK, no one sells those to the public but you can get LiFePo4 cells all day long (EV car guys use them also the 18650 LI batteries are this type...the 18650's have built in BMS's). They are a LOT less volatile than the Polymer cells and you can get BMS's for them.

Acutally you didn't go far enough down the page of my link..

18V LITHIUM TWO PACK FOR $92

So that is $46 each and you don't take the risk of burning up you or your property.

Okay, I see it now. But these are the P102 batteries. I can get two of them for $99 CDN at the store (with a drill and driver free in the package)!

If the Ridgid truly has a lifetime warranty on batteries, I should spend a little more and get it instead of throwing money away on Ryobi. I had a good chat with a manager at Home Depot and he told me straight out that I have a two year warranty on the Ryobi, redeemable at the nearest Home Depot repair center, which is 500 km away in Edmonton. Postage is expensive in Canada and he calculated that mailing there and back would cost more than buying a new one. He agreed that the warranty is useless to everyone in our area. I expect the same catch22 applies to Ridgid products. I must explain all this to the nice lady at Ridgid's call center. Maybe she will give me a freebee.

gdetrailer, those cautions for Lithium batteries are beyond reasonable! Do you remove the battery from your cell phone when it is not in use? I replaced the one in my iPhone, no trouble at all.

Here is some reading from the experts for you to check out concerning Li-Ion batteries..

HERE

HERE

HERE

HERE

HERE

HERE

IMPORTANT SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS AND WARNINGS For LI-ION / POLYMER BATTERIES

FROM HERE (you might be able to purchase Li-Ion batteries from them but you may want to check the SHIPPING COSTS ASSOCIATED with Li-Ion batteries)

You must read these safety instructions and warnings before using or charging your batteries.
Lithium Polymer and Li-ion batteries are volatile.Failure to read and follow the below instructions may result in fire, personal injury and damage to property if charged or used improperly.
By purchasing Lithium Polymer and Li-ion battery, the buyer assumes all risks associated with lithium batteries. If you do not agree with these conditions, please consider Nimh or Nicd battery or return the battery immediately before use.
Li-Ion and Polymer battery & packs may explode and cause fire if misuse or defective. We require all Li-ion batteries & packs buyers must be professionals and have capability to handle emergency.
Must follow our instruction exactly which is listed on batterypace.com product page to control charging and discharging current.
When charging Battery Pack, please put battery in a fire proof container. Please don't leave battery pack and charger on the wood material or carpet and unattended.
Must keep Li-Ion & Polymer battery pack away from children.
If you build your own battery pack by our battery module, please make sure to charge each module separately by using our smart charger. The purpose is to keep each battery pack balanced during charging. The PCB inside will protect this module only.

Never make wrong polarity connection when charging and discharging battery packs. Always double check polarity of battery's connector to make sure red wire to red wire and black wire to black wire.
Lithium batteries has it's cycle life, please replace old battery with new one when it reaches it's service life or when it is two year old, whichever comes first.

Test battery properties is your own responsibility. Please test Li-Ion battery you bought from us before using or sell to your customer to ensure battery can be operated preperly and safely in your device. Please click here to learn what is UL safety test standard for Li-Ion battery / pack. For more information, please contact Underwriters Laboratoriesdirectly.

Must report your applications, charging and discharging rate if the Li-ion / polymer battery pack is over 14.8V, we won't ship it out without this information. Pleasedownload,fill the form and fax back to 510-525-4728. Attn: BatteySpace-Tech

General Guidelines and Warnings

1)Use specific Lithium Polymer/Li-ion charger only. Do not use a NiMH or NiCd charger- Failure to do so may a cause fire, which may result in personal injury and property damage.
2)Never charge batteries unattended.When charging LiPo/Li-ion batteries you should always remain in constant observation to monitor the charging process and react to potential problems that may occur.
3) Some LiPo/Li-ion chargers on the market may have technical deficiencies that may cause it to charge the LiPo/Li-ion batteries incorrectly or at an improper rate. It is your responsibility solely to assure the charger you purchased works properly. Always monitor charging process to assure batteries are being charged properly. Failure to do so may result in fire.
4)If at any time you witness a battery starting to balloon, swell up, smoke or hot, discontinue charging process immediately, disconnect the battery and observe it in a safe place for approximately 15 minutes.This may cause the battery to leak, and the reaction with air may cause the chemicals to ignite, resulting in fire.

5) Since delayed chemical reaction can occur, it is best to observe the battery as a safety precaution.observation should occur in a safe area outside of any building or vehicle and away from any combustible material.
6)Wire lead shorts can cause fire!If you accidentally short the wires, the batterymustbe placed in a safe area for observation for approximately 15 minutes. Additionally, if a short occurs and contact is made with metal (such as rings on your hand), severe injuries may occur due to the conductibility of electric current.
7) A battery can still ignite even after 10 minutes.
8) In the event of a crash due to bad shipment or other reason, you must remove battery for observation and place in a safe open area away from any combustible material for approximately 15 minutes.
9) If for any reason you need to cut the terminal wires, it will be necessary to cut each wire separately, ensuring the wires to not touch each other or a short may occur, potentially causing a fire.
10)To solder a connector: Remove insulating tape of Red wire and solder to positive terminal of a connector, then remove insulating tape of Black wire and solder to the negative terminal of connector. Be careful not to short the wire lead. If you accidentally cause the battery to short, place it in a safe open space and observe the battery for approximately 15 minutes.A battery may swell or even possibly catch fire after a short time.
11) Never store or charge battery pack inside your car in extreme temperatures, since extreme temperature could ignite fire.
12) Never drop the batteries.
13) We suggest you put the battery in an enclosure to protect it from damages by liquid or dropping from height accidentally.



Charging Process



1) Never charge batteries unattended.
2)Put battery in the fireproof container and charge in an isolated area, away from other flammable materials.Always have fire extinguisher for emergency use.
3) Let battery cool down to ambient temperature before charging.
4)Do not charge batteries packs in series.Charge each battery pack individually. Failure to do so may result in incorrect battery recognition and charging functions. Overcharging may occur and fire may be the result.
5) When selecting the cell count or voltage for charging purposes, select the cell count and voltage as it appears on the battery label. As a safety precaution, please confirm the information printed on the battery is correct.

a. Example: The label on a 2-Cell battery pack in series will read charge as 2-Cell (7.4V), or may cause fire. You must select 2-Cell for charging.

b. Example: The label on a 3-Cell battery pack in series will read charge as 3-Cell (11.1V), or may cause fire. You must select 3-Cell for charging.

6) Selecting a cell count other than the one printed on the battery (always confirm label is correct), can cause fire.
7) You must select the charge rate current that does not exceed the battery's allowed charging current. (Please double check the battery's specification)

Storage & Transportation

1) Store battery at room temperature between 40 and 80 degrees F for best results.
2) Do not expose battery pack to direct sunlight (heat) for extended periods.
3) When transporting or temporarily storing in a vehicle, temperature range should be greater than 20 degrees F but no more than 150 degrees F.
4) Storing battery at temperatures greater than 170 degrees F for extended periods of time (more than 2 hours) may cause damage to battery and possible fire.



Caring for

1) Charge battery with good quality Lithium Polymer charger. A poor quality charger can be dangerous.
2) Set voltage and current correctly (failure to do so can cause fire).
3) Please check cell voltage after the first charge.
Example 1-Cell: 4.2V (4.15 to 4.22)
2-Cell: 8.4V (8.32 to 8.44)
3-Cell: 12.6V (12.48 to 12.66)
4-Cell: 16.8V (16.64 to 16.88)
5-Cell: 18.5V (18.30 to 18.60)
4)Do not discharge battery to a level below 3V per cell under load.Deep discharge below 3V per cell can deteriorate battery performance.
5) Use caution to avoid puncture of the cell. Puncture of cells may cause a fire.
6) Charging the battery every 2 months to keep it fresh if you don't use it.



Operating Charging Temperature:

32 to 113 degree F

Discharge: 32 to 140 degree F

1) Let battery cool down to an ambient temperature before charging.

2) During discharge and handling of batteries, do not exceed 160 degree F.



Life

Batteries that lose 20% of their capacity must be removed from service and disposed of properly. Discharge the battery to 3V/Cell, making sure output wires are insulated, then wrap battery in a bag for disposal.

Harvey51 wrote:

You are better off buying complete NEW battery packs.

You can get new 18V packs for your Ryobi for about $34 each which is a bargain compared to a lithium fire..

RYOBI BATTERY PACKS

That price is for NiCd battery packs. The Li ones in the link are two for $125, same as the local Home Depot. It also has the $99 for drill, driver and two batteries package. It seems the tools are free and the batteries overpriced.

Would NiCd batteries be the way to go because the lithium cells will inevitably develop a tenth volt differential among the cells and die? I know people who have used a NiCd driver battery for a decade.

Thanks for the link to Li cells.
Would it be safe to attempt eliminating the differential between cells by slightly charging the lowest voltage cell a wee bit - say 50 mA for ten seconds?

Acutally you didn't go far enough down the page of my link..

18V LITHIUM TWO PACK FOR $92

So that is $46 each and you don't take the risk of burning up you or your property.

I personally prefer my Nicads, yes they are heavier but they tend to last a lot longer (many more charge/discharge cycles). Nicads do have a higher self discharge rate and a memory issue but if you manage them correctly they will easily outlast 4 or even 5 Lithium battery packs for life cycles.

My good old 9.6V Makita equipment with Nicads I have had for 25 yrs and in that time I have only replaced both battery packs ONCE..

The odds of you finding the PROPER individual Lithium cells is nearly impossible since the manufacturers of the cells will not sell directly to the public and Ryobi is not going to sell the cells to the public..

It isn't about making more money on the packs, it IS to KEEP the public from putting themselves in danger. Not to mention opening up Ryobi and even the cell manufacturers to possible lawsuits.

As far as you attempting to equalize the cells, PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT.

These cells DO NOT TAKE KINDLY TO OVER VOLTAGE OR OVER CURRENT, PERIOD.

If you are really wanting to play, then I would suggest you take them outside, find a area of concrete, gravel, dirt which has NO COMBUSTIBLE items nearby. Run a VERY LONG WIRE and stay far, far way from them. Additionally once you attempt this, you should not ever take them anywhere of value since they can at anytime decide to get unstable. Possibly the next time you charge them or even attempt to use them. Results will be hotter than you will ever expect.

Batteries are consumables, they are meant to be replaced.

Just pay the money and buy the new batteries...

Harvey51 wrote:
Where can Lithium cells be obtained? I have a Ryobi 18 V tool battery that will not run a tool despite being charged to 9.5 volts. I am told the circuit in the battery pack doesn't allow current to flow if there is a voltage differential over a tenth of a volt among the 6 cells. One weak cell kills the whole thing.

Take a look here. They have been very good to deal with.
Primecell