Volta Li ion battery system

Chum lee wrote:
Just for thought. Google: "Fairbanks Alaska worlds most powerful battery energy storage" Watch the video on youtube.

Chum lee

Wow, I can't imagine the cost of maintaining that many wet cell NiCad batteries. We used to use those a lot in the military, especially on aircraft and aircraft support equipment. Nice batteries if you maintain them properly which means periodic cycling, equalizing, tear down cleaning, re-assembly etc. The maintenance is labor intensive.

Just for thought. Google: "Fairbanks Alaska worlds most powerful battery energy storage" Watch the video on youtube.

Chum lee

Relion looks good for lithium batteries in lead acid physical sizes ... thanks for the heads up.

Also, this is another possible source for lithium RV batteries:

https://www.valence.com/products/standard-modules/xp-module/

pnichols wrote:
I wonder how long these guys are going to survive? If they're still around when my current AGM batteries are done, I may help them remian in the 12V lithium business:

Their BBB ratings were F last time I looked. Something about not delivering product. May want to be careful. I chose Relion. The Quartzsite solar place handles Relion.

Oldfordman wrote:
Demand for new battery technology is being driven by the auto industry, Solar power industry, and even public utilities. We're down on the food chain but will certainly benefit from the gains made in larger batteries.

Well ... us good old 12V-based RV owners are not at the absolute bottom of the lithium battery food chain - yet.

I wonder how long these guys are going to survive? If they're still around when my current AGM batteries are done, I may help them remian in the 12V lithium business:
https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/lithium-rv-deep-cycle.php

It's all about CURRENT events

Research extreme high power components.

This is not a stacking issue with transistor density. It is an immense power control issue integrated with monitoring.

Apples and Freeway On Ramps. i.e. different planet issues.

Can this be resolved? Yes. Reliability can be improved? Yes.

But not in the near future.

Less expensive higher reliability MOSFETS have to be invented and produced. Then the price has to drop considerably. Parallel MOSFETS, even silicon dioxide MOSFETS, put them near capacity and see what actually happens.

This is not easy engineering to begin with. Compound it with halving or quartering circuit prices. Wait, there's more...integrate the unheard of miracle with a do-it-yourself consumer.

Lower price Lithium will appear in the next several years. Durability to take advantage of multi-thousand cyclability?

Wait and see. Scandals on the horizon...

MrWizard wrote:
I think prices will eventually come down
I don't think it will every get cheaper than lead acid
Not in this century
The chemistry, and mfg processing are more technical and more costly
More costly to fabricate and assemble
This will keep them costing more than lead acid
But we can hope

I think the regulatory pressure on manufacture of lead and lead based products will push more efforts toward Li-Ion or similar technology.

The aircraft industry is leading the way and as we saw with Boeing's 787, solving many of the issues involved in large scale Li-Ion power storage.

Like anything else, initial high costs due to limited manufacture (combined with R&D espense) will give way to much lower costs. How fast? Depends on demand. Look at your flat screen TV. Remember what they cost 10-15 years ago? Now look at what the same sized units are selling for at Walmart.

Demand for new battery technology is being driven by the auto industry, Solar power industry, and even public utilities. We're down on the food chain but will certainly benefit from the gains made in larger batteries.

My local electric utility recently installed a huge "battery", about the size of two railroad box cars. Once installed it was filled with an electrolyte that contained the "charge". It will be charged during times when the spot price of electricity is low and will provide electricity for many thousands of homes when the cost is high. It appears that this technology is scalable so who knows, maybe we'll be able to recharge batteries by merely exchanging electrolyte. Who knows. Maybe next is the use of "di-lithium crystals" :)

Jaysus...

The issue is not the battery.

The issue is the lifespan / reliability of the monitor and control circuitry for each cell. Reliability or lack-of is a factor of multiples percentage failure rate. This is not portable radio territory - it is a high amperage high wattage environment.

When I assisted Frank Oropeza at Transpo Electronics with the design of the 911 series (PWM) ambulance alternator voltage regulator this was a ten ampere environment. The regulator could not be built for less than "X" amount of dollars. Only wave soldering selected components generated the high degree of reliability.

In that other thread read and read again the point about **BACKUP** FIELD EFFECT TRANSISTOR FAILURE DETECTION. It is there for a reason.

You EXPECT lithium battery prices to dramatically plunge. Well they can. But it will come at an awful price. Reliability. What the hell good is an accumulator that can withstand say three thousand cycles, yet end up with an cell interconnect control failure after say four hundred cycles?

With my tinkering I demand reliability. With my profession I uncovered unreliability. Failure to meet reasonable expectations.

Houston, we have a conflict.

Reliability versus cost

High reliability at low(est) cost.

And for those folks who try and establish a parallel between this battery technology and say solar voltaics - forget it. Slingshots versus cannons in perspective.

High amperage control is not just a discipline, it is an art form.

No matter how hard I look I cannot find reliable high voltage, high amperage components at a comparative cost in proportion to lesser rated devices.

Nor is there ANY published material that white papers control reliability for lithium ion. Now an EIGHT THOUSAND CYCLE LIFESPAN TEST requires X amount of time. I suggest doing the math. Then use your noodle.

I suspect a surprisingly high percentage of the high cost of today's lithium technology is tied up to monitoring and control.

Example is a special circuit mentioned that monitors components within the control circuitry.

And it's not a question of "wanting" this technology. It is here, now at a pricey expense.

And you want the cost to tumble. Soon and dramatically

And retain a reasonable degree of reliability. i.e. a cheap monitoring and control circuit every bit as good as on the high dollar lithium products.

It's nice to dream...

I think prices will eventually come down
I don't think it will every get cheaper than lead acid
Not in this century
The chemistry, and mfg processing are more technical and more costly
More costly to fabricate and assemble
This will keep them costing more than lead acid
But we can hope

It's only a matter of time before we will see "affordable" Li-Ion battery systems that can provide 120V AC for all our coach power/lighting needs.

Our current 12V systems have one serious problem. In order to power 120 VAC appliances the current draw to the inverter requires conductors the size of small water pipes. Also battery banks get heavier and heavier.

I recently purchased a Chevy Volt that has a 17 Kw + main battery. 360 volt potential means small conductors, even to the main propulsion motor. The range extender "motor/Generator" is about the size of a standard 4 cylinder engine/transaxle package from earlier vehicles. At 75 Kw output it's quite powerful for it's size. I recall a 60 Kw genset my military company towed around on a trailer that was larger than a "jeep".

I just recently saw some Li-Ion batteries for sale at a measly price of $1200 (group 31 size). Given time the price will be down to less than a current lead/acid type Deep Cycle battery and storage banks will provide days of energy with far less weight requirements. Evolution. There's no reason we have to keep using the same technology for lighting as we use for engine starting.