Forum Discussion
192 Replies
AH64ID wrote:
Typo on power, should have said torque.Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Next time dyno your car in 2nd or 3rd gear and then 1 to 1 and see which makes more "power" then come back here and tell all of us of your results. Read post #10 if you want to know the story without doing anything.
Finding a dyno that allows for full power in 2nd or 3rd is very difficult, even the loaded dyno's don't generally have enough load. This is why higher gears make more power, especially on turbo motors.
I am well aware of how it works, but nonetheless your link doesn't work.Turtle n Peeps wrote:
My point being of all of this is:
In the old days of 3 speed autos and 4 speed manuals with 200 HP at the rear wheels it made a BIG difference in the rear gear we chose. Now days with 6 speeds+ and huge HP, rear end gear picking is almost out of the equation.
It still makes a difference, look at tow ratings in 3.42 vs 4.10.
Anyway you cut it gear for gear there is more available rear wheel torque with lower gearing.
Yes more gears will help, i.e. 9812V and his 3.42's, but he is also going with 4.10's on his next truck.
Most older 4 speed manuals did not have an OD, so 1-4 where similar to 1-4 on a modern 6 speed diesel. 3 speed auto's also didn't have OD, but the 1 extra gear between 1 and direct is great for towing.
Low speed is where the lower gearing really shines, the added wheel torque does get the load moving easier. In these tests from a stop that would have improved any of the trucks times, and one reason the Ford did so well (lowest overall gearing).
Ram's 0-60 and 1/4 mile times would certainly have been noticeably better with 4.10's over 3.73's. It's hard to say that it would be negligible.
These trucks are not designed for drag racing. 4.10 rear gears would put more torque to the rear axle but if the tires lack the traction to turn that into acceleration it's not going to buy you anything anyway. Chevy understands how different rear end ratio's are not all that important anymore, now that we have 6 speed transmissions. So, they save their customers all the confusion. Ford decides for you with their F450 and F350 dually. The idea is this: You are towing your trailer down the highway at 60 mph and hit a hill; say the hill is that steep that your engine only has enough power to pull it at 50 mph. The truck will slow down. If at 50 mph your engine can run at the rpm where it makes peak HP you had the perfect gears for that hill. Next hill maybe a little different gear ratio would have been better.- Typo on power, should have said torque.
Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Next time dyno your car in 2nd or 3rd gear and then 1 to 1 and see which makes more "power" then come back here and tell all of us of your results. Read post #10 if you want to know the story without doing anything.
Finding a dyno that allows for full power in 2nd or 3rd is very difficult, even the loaded dyno's don't generally have enough load. This is why higher gears make more power, especially on turbo motors.
I am well aware of how it works, but nonetheless your link doesn't work.Turtle n Peeps wrote:
My point being of all of this is:
In the old days of 3 speed autos and 4 speed manuals with 200 HP at the rear wheels it made a BIG difference in the rear gear we chose. Now days with 6 speeds+ and huge HP, rear end gear picking is almost out of the equation.
It still makes a difference, look at tow ratings in 3.42 vs 4.10. Physics and gearing didn't change just because we added more gears, the same principles still apply. They may be less apparent under normal driving due to increased hp and gears, but it still works the exact same.
Anyway you cut it gear for gear there is more available rear wheel torque with lower gearing.
Yes more gears will help, i.e. 9812V and his 3.42's, but he is also going with 4.10's on his next truck.
Most older 4 speed manuals did not have an OD, so 1-4 where similar to 1-4 on a modern 6 speed diesel. 3 speed auto's also didn't have OD, but the 1 extra gear between 1 and direct is great for towing.
Low speed is where the lower gearing really shines, the added wheel torque does get the load moving easier. In these tests from a stop that would have improved any of the trucks times, and one reason the Ford did so well (lowest overall gearing).
Ram's 0-60 and 1/4 mile times would certainly have been noticeably better with 4.10's over 3.73's. It's hard to say that it would be negligible.Turtle n Peeps wrote:
As you can see, the torque increase was huge but by your own words you did not make anymore power. (1% is within static of most dyno runs)
The point was how load effects a chassis dyno. With my OEM drivetrain loss of 15% (as I measured on a dyno) I am putting out right at 1000 ft/lbs at the crank. The gearing in 6th, OD of 0.73:1, should produce less torque but it makes more due to the engine being loaded and making power.
Watch diesels on the dyno, they generally smoke even when smoke-free on the street. It's because they rev so fast there is excess fuel, or lost power.
A Chassis dyno is all we have, but irrelevant in this conversation based on how it measures/calculates. bobx2 wrote:
Pretty sure Dodge builds the trucks. A Ram is a Dodge, no matter how you slice it.
I thought Fiat is building the trucks now. Before that it was Dailmer...- bobx2,
"Uhh, maybe you should read the title of this thread.... DOH!!!"
Go easy on ib516 as he does have an obvious reading deficiency. Hijacking is his middle name when facts upset him and threaten his blind pom pom waving psychobabble. Just have some mercy for him as he needs it! NC Hauler wrote:
It's actually Ram, and you can build a 3500 a 100 different way's IF you want to work with the or very fancy or just plain ole truck:), but in reality, you can only get the 3500's with a manual transmission, the 68RFE auto tranny or the Aisin tranny...that's one important option. Now on the 3500 DRW you have the option of 3:42, 3:73 or 4:10 gear that's the other important option...Not really that hard to figure out...You pick the tranny you want and the gearing you want in the Dually. In the SRW truck, you pick the tranny, It only come's with 3:42 gearing...After that, the rest is just how fancy or plain you want your truck.
I've ordered Chevy's and I've ordered the Ram in my sig, and neither one was that big of a deal to put togather, not confusing if you know what you want and every option gives you a definition of the option, just like Chevy does.
Pretty sure Dodge builds the trucks. A Ram is a Dodge, no matter how you slice it. As a side note, if you are going to be so critical of peoples terminology, perhaps you should take a gander at your signature. ;)
Jim & Kathy
2013 Dodge 3500DRW Longhorn 4X4/CC/LB/Aisin tranny/4:10/Cummins: 385HP/850TQ
06 HR Presidential Suite 37RLQ/SK3005 Satellite/Splendide XC2100/4slide/dual pane windows
2014 Jeep Compass Ltd 4X4ib516 wrote:
Cummins12V98 wrote:
NC Hauler wrote:
4x4ord wrote:
I just read over the scoring sheet a little closer and have to admit there is some stuff that make the results a little off in my mind. For example the Ford was on top the Davis Dam run almost a minute ahead of the Chevy and 1.25 minutes ahead of the Ram. That's like a mile in front and it gained only 10 points?? Then on the subjective scoring Aaron Bragman was very biased toward the Ram. These trucks are not that different ... 65 points for overall value for the Ford and 80 for the more expensive Ram .... give me a break ... I can see him not liking the Ford but for less money you definitely get a little more with Ford ... things like incredible tow mirrors that are both power extend and power fold; genuine leather seats vs synthetic leather in the supplied Ram; a more refined quieter engine :); keypad entry system. I would throw out Aaron's scores and call the results very close but a little less biased:
GMC...2827
Ford...2766
Ram...2706
My Longhorn Ram doesn't have "synthetic leather":h..I KNOW the Laramie Limited doesn't have "synthetic leather" and Mine is genuine leather....the rest I don't really care about:)
Hey give it to the Ford...I picked them to win any way, and had Chevy in 2nd....Ram was last...no matter how they finished....
The leather in our Longhorns is what you would find in the top of the line luxury cars. Now the Laramie that's a different story.
Nope. My Laramie has real leather.
Sorry, I mistakenly thought they tested a Ram Laramie rather than the the Laramie Limited. It could very well be that the Laramie Limited uses genuine leather....it sure is a nice interior. I think whether you're talking Ford, GMC, Ram, Mercedes, or Jaguar most leather interiors use synthetic leather. Some put a scrap of genuine leather in the center of the seat cushion so they can advertise genuine leather seats. For many uses synthetic leather might make sense.AH64ID wrote:
Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Sorry but it doesn't work like that.
The best way I can explain it without writing a book is this:
Chassis dyno a vehicle a with 2.75 gears in it and note the HP.
Then chassis dyno the same vehicle with a 4.56 gear in it.
Or do this. Take a vehicle and dyno it in a 1 to 1 gear or as close to 1 to 1 as you can get. Then take the same vehicle and dyno it in 1st gear.
Which vehicle is going to show the most HP? This will be HP to the wheel which is what counts. From your way of thinking the 1st gear way of dyno'ing should show way more HP. See if it works out that way for you.
If the short gear will not make that much difference in fuel economy why doesn't Ram just have the 4:10 gear and call it good? Think what that would do. Less inventory stock. You could just stock one gear in your dealers for your trucks.
It absolutely works that way, that's what gearing and torque multiplication is.. plain and simple. Do a little research on it, and do not confuse HP with Torque.
Chassis dyno's are not a good example, too hard to load the engine in lower gears. The engine is out of rpms before full power can be made. This is why dyno runs are generally done in 1:1 for NA/super charged motors and OD for turbo motors. The last time I dyno'd I ran 5th and 6th. HP was within 1% but torque was 50 ft/lbs lower on the 5th run because the rpms increase faster than the engine makes power. So a run in 5th didn't get to full power until 2500 rpms plus, but the 6th run gets there around 2000. Neither of the run were as much boost as on the street, meaning that there is actually more power than recorded.
They don't do just 4.10 for the same reason Ford has a lower geared transmission and a higher geared rear end, public perception. I am also not saying it doesn't make any difference, just saying the difference is much smaller than most think with modern engines.
My dad 2006 Dodge has the AD ratio G56, with a .79:1 OD and I have a 2005 with a .73:1 NV5600. Both truck have 3.73's, but his OD is low enough that his final drive is nearly identical to what mine would be with 4.10's and we get pretty much the same mileage on the freeway, close enough that sometimes he is a little better and sometimes I am. Loaded up he can get better mileage in 6th that I do because the engine needs to make less power to get the same torque to the wheel.
You said:It does not make power, but it does increase or decrease the power depending on the ratio.
Torque is not power. You are just increasing torque and torque is not power as you found out on the dyno.
You said:HP was within 1% but torque was 50 ft/lbs lower
As you can see, the torque increase was huge but by your own words you did not make anymore power. (1% is within static of most dyno runs)
Power is a timed event. Torque is just twisting.
Next time dyno your car in 2nd or 3rd gear and then 1 to 1 and see which makes more "power" then come back here and tell all of us of your results. Read post #10 if you want to know the story without doing anything.
My point being of all of this is:
In the old days of 3 speed autos and 4 speed manuals with 200 HP at the rear wheels it made a BIG difference in the rear gear we chose. Now days with 6 speeds+ and huge HP, rear end gear picking is almost out of the equation.ib516 wrote:
Just like I thought. Not even a peep about the 2500 gasser test. Didn't care for these factual results there Nutz?
Uhh, maybe you should read the title of this thread.... DOH!!!ib516 wrote:
Cummins12V98 wrote:
NC Hauler wrote:
4x4ord wrote:
I just read over the scoring sheet a little closer and have to admit there is some stuff that make the results a little off in my mind. For example the Ford was on top the Davis Dam run almost a minute ahead of the Chevy and 1.25 minutes ahead of the Ram. That's like a mile in front and it gained only 10 points?? Then on the subjective scoring Aaron Bragman was very biased toward the Ram. These trucks are not that different ... 65 points for overall value for the Ford and 80 for the more expensive Ram .... give me a break ... I can see him not liking the Ford but for less money you definitely get a little more with Ford ... things like incredible tow mirrors that are both power extend and power fold; genuine leather seats vs synthetic leather in the supplied Ram; a more refined quieter engine :); keypad entry system. I would throw out Aaron's scores and call the results very close but a little less biased:
GMC...2827
Ford...2766
Ram...2706
My Longhorn Ram doesn't have "synthetic leather":h..I KNOW the Laramie Limited doesn't have "synthetic leather" and Mine is genuine leather....the rest I don't really care about:)
Hey give it to the Ford...I picked them to win any way, and had Chevy in 2nd....Ram was last...no matter how they finished....
The leather in our Longhorns is what you would find in the top of the line luxury cars. Now the Laramie that's a different story.
Nope. My Laramie has real leather.
I did not say the Laramie did not have leather. The leather in the Longhorn is a different grade than the Laramie.- Congrats to GM for a much needed win good job guys!
Now a few questions here.
1, why did they test using a Ram Laramie Limited, the top of the line and the heaviest of the Ram line?
2, with GM being the lightest of the group, why does it have the least payload?
3, Why did the the Ram haul the heaviest trailer every pull. If you do the math we see the Ram either had a heavier trailer weight or a heavier tongue weight every time.
No whining just asking some questions. These guys say the test are fair but when you stop and look at the data they post the numbers just don't add up. Funny thing is the all new Ford F-350 still could not bet the older Ram.
Oh and BTW the GM/Chevy nor the Ford HD truck will not be getting the 8 speed trans. Just like the Ram HD will not get a 8 speed.
Don
