Attention all Wolf Creek 850 Owners

Reddog1 wrote:

Bob B wrote:
... And bean counters with tunnel vision who think it is great that they are saving a few $ per unit......I used to work for a company that was great til bean counters replaced all the people who actually knew what was going on.

In my opinion, the older the company, the greater the probability this is true. It is not unique to RVs.

Wayne

Bob, many of those companies do what I call, " LOOSING THE RECIPE"...

Many examples of this.... Just look at the auto mfg recalls!

Most are related to lack of engineering experience.....

Bean counters and upper non-experienced in the trades management look at folks with experience as not needed... Engineers out of school are cheap and they know what to do...

"O" rings on the shuttle, a primary example... no need for further discussion.

Jim

Bob B wrote:
... And bean counters with tunnel vision who think it is great that they are saving a few $ per unit......I used to work for a company that was great til bean counters replaced all the people who actually knew what was going on.

In my opinion, the older the company, the greater the probability this is true. It is not unique to RVs.

Wayne

garycq wrote:
There is a possibility I may buy a TC at sometime in the future and since I presently own an AF 5th wheel and very pleased with it I have been thinking about a Wolf Creek 850. Ron Nash is the founder of the company but unfortunately had a stroke several years ago and was forced to retire. If he was still running the company and this problem came up he would have solved it and done a retro fix on any camper that needed it but Ron is no longer there and it appears salesmen have taken over the company. It is still a good company but not as good as it once was in my opinion. The least the company should offer is a "kit" to fix any problem that any person feels they need. Even if NW offers it at a reasonable cost they should still offer it because their reputation is based on a well engineered product. It makes no sense that they wouldn't offer such an easy fix and be anxious to do so. Like I said it is still a good company but salesmen often wreck an otherwise good company.
Gary

And bean counters with tunnel vision who think it is great that they are saving a few $ per unit......I used to work for a company that was great til bean counters replaced all the people who actually knew what was going on.

There is a possibility I may buy a TC at sometime in the future and since I presently own an AF 5th wheel and very pleased with it I have been thinking about a Wolf Creek 850. Ron Nash is the founder of the company but unfortunately had a stroke several years ago and was forced to retire. If he was still running the company and this problem came up he would have solved it and done a retro fix on any camper that needed it but Ron is no longer there and it appears salesmen have taken over the company. It is still a good company but not as good as it once was in my opinion. The least the company should offer is a "kit" to fix any problem that any person feels they need. Even if NW offers it at a reasonable cost they should still offer it because their reputation is based on a well engineered product. It makes no sense that they wouldn't offer such an easy fix and be anxious to do so. Like I said it is still a good company but salesmen often wreck an otherwise good company.
Gary

HMS Beagle wrote:


What you have is a steel bracket thru bolted in the middle of a plywood panel, fastened with small screws or staples at its edges. There is a small (plywood) corner block at the forward edge providing some reinforcing. This is so inadequate as to be laughable. A continuous plywood panel would pull out at only very slightly more force.

Even my wife, who knows nothing about this stuff, saw that and said, "That's it??" "That's all that's holding that piece in?" Yep.

As far as solid, continuous panel being used instead, I agree. Would have likely pulled loose too, but possibly kept it on the truck, thus only requiring repair rather replacement of the entire camper and truck bed.

Regarding turnbuckles, my Northwood 'Arctic Fox' manual "recommends" a spring loaded type. That's it. Aren't the happijacks that were used in both situations, spring- loaded? It has way more to say about washing and cleaning the camper than anything about the turnbuckles. I guess they leave that part up to the tiedown and turnbuckle manufacturer. Which begs the question, if NW in fact recommends only Torklift, why isn't there literature or something in writing presented to the customer before the camper even gets put on the truck and leaves the dealer?

In both cases, they were using spring-loaded type turnbuckles as recommended in the manual. How, then, can they put the blame on the turnbuckles that THEIR manual recommends?

Not that it means anything, here's the warranty text from NW:

warranty link

ONE YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY
FOR TRUCK CAMPERS MANUFACTURED BY NORTHWOOD MANUFACTURING
SOLD IN THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA
COVERAGE PROVIDED
Your new truck camper, including the structure, plumbing, heating, and electrical systems, and all appliances and equipment installed by the
manufacturer, is warranted under normal use to be free from manufacturing defects in material and workmanship.
This limited warranty extends to the first retail purchaser and his transferee(s) and begins on the date of original retail delivery or the date the
camper is first placed into service as a rental, commercial or demonstrator camper (whichever occurs first). This limited warranty extends for a
period of one year from such date. Written notice of defects must be given to the selling dealer or the manufacturer not later than ten (10) days
after the expiration of the applicable limited warranty. Warranty repairs, if required, will be made without charge after your camper is taken to the
dealer or manufacturing plant location.
OWNER'S OBLIGATIONS
The owner is responsible for normal maintenance as described in the Owner's Manual; however, minor adjustments (such as adjustments to the
interior or exterior doors, LP regulator pressure, cabinet latches, TV antenna control, etc.) will be performed by the dealer during the first 90 days
of warranty coverage. Thereafter, such adjustments are the responsibility of the owner as normal maintenance unless required as a direct result
of repair or replacement of a defective part under this limited warranty.
DEALER'S OBLIGATIONS
By agreement with the manufacturer, the dealer is obligated to maintain the camper prior to retail sale, to perform a detailed predelivery
inspection and to repair or replace any parts necessary to correct defects in material or workmanship.
WHEN A DEALER DOES NOT RESOLVE A PROBLEM
If the dealer is unable or unwilling to resolve a problem which the owner is convinced is covered by this limited warranty, he should contact
NORTHWOOD MANUFACTURING at the address listed below and provide the manufacturer with a description in writing of the problem and
attempts made to resolve it.
MANUFACTURER'S OBLIGATIONS
Upon receipt of notice of a claim which the dealer was unable or unwilling to resolve, NORTHWOOD MANUFACTURING will repair or replace
any parts necessary to correct defects in material or workmanship, or will take other appropriate action as may be required.
WHAT IS NOT COVERED BY THIS LIMITED WARRANTY
THIS LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER THE FOLLOWING:
1. The batteries which are covered by the separate warranty of the manufacturer.
2. Damage caused by or related to:
A. Accidents, misuse or negligence
B. Failure to comply with instructions contained in the Owner's Manual
C. Alteration or modification of the camper.
D. Environmental conditions (salt, hail, chemicals in the atmosphere, etc.)
3. Normal deterioration due to wear or exposure, i.e., fading of fabrics, drapes, carpet wear, etc.
4. Normal maintenance and service items such as light bulbs, fuses, lubricants, etc.
5. Extra expenses such as transportation to and from dealer or manufacturing plant location, loss of time, loss of pay, loss of use of the
camper, inconvenience, commercial loss, towing charges, bus fares, vehicle rental, incidental charges such as telephone calls or
lodging bills, or other incidental or consequential damages.
This limited warranty gives you specific legal rights, and you may also have other rights which may vary from state to state.
Dealers or any other persons are not authorized to make modifications to this limited warranty, any additional statements concerning this limited
warranty, whether oral or written are not the responsibility of the manufacturer.
BRAND NAME MODEL SERIAL NO.

Yep here it is. Northern rollover.

Note that in the description they talk about using the camper to right the rig. Of course all accidents are chaotic, but does anyone really think the WolfCreek plywood tie down would survive that (even "unspliced")? What you expect them to do is up to you, but what they CAN do is a matter of engineering, and that appears to be lacking in the WolfCreek.

Reading this thread out of curiosity. But two points spring to my engineer's mind:

Frame mount vs. bed mount tiedowns would make very little difference in the failure of that tie down. The truck end did not fail, so the ONLY difference could be the angle of pull. The camper end would pull out easier straight down (I would think) than angled somewhat forward because the forces would be normal to the plywood rather than in line with it.

Second, there is much fretting about the plywood splice. I believe that is nearly irrelevant to the strength (or lack of) in that design. What you have is a steel bracket thru bolted in the middle of a plywood panel, fastened with small screws or staples at its edges. There is a small (plywood) corner block at the forward edge providing some reinforcing. This is so inadequate as to be laughable. A continuous plywood panel would pull out at only very slightly more force. Most RVs are "lightly" built, but that is ridiculous.

Reddog1 asks what the hold downs should be expected to do. Somewhere back on this forum are pictures of a Northern camper (similar to Bigfoot) rolled down a bank with the truck. Truck and camper still firmly attached. Also pictures of the wrecker righting the rig (using the camper as a lever), again camper and truck still attached. I somehow doubt WolfCreek's method would survive that. Yes, you can ask more of them!

Reddog1 also asks for a fix. I agree that if you own or want to own one of these things you have little choice but to fix the shortcomings and move on. All brands of campers have build quality issues, just some more than others. What I would do is remove the plywood cover from the bottom (if access is not possible from inside - usually the case) and fabricate a steel 3 dimensional corner that ties the sides, the plywood cover, and the front bulkhead with its jack mount together. Then thru bolt the bracket through that. The steel fabrication would be a very small job, access would be the main issue. But the result would be something that would carry 10 or 20 times the load of the existing setup. If it pulls out, it will take the whole corner of the camper with it. What is there is very easy to improve upon.

I get the fix it and move on attitude as I'm guilty of it all the time, BUT when companies have a safety design flaw for whatever reason be it higher profit or honest mistake they should be held accountable otherwise standards will just keep dropping as long as people are willing to keep buying their problematic units and fixing them. Cheap prices attract buyers like bugs to zapper. Unfortunately we've become a nation that wants an Eddie Bauer but at a walmart price point, all that glitters is not gold. Imagine if the airline industry performed like the rv industry.

Sticky

MORSNOW wrote:
I also would like to know where Northwood "requires" TorkLift tie downs is written? That is not stated anywhere on the camper, owners manual(s), Northwood dealer, or in a written letter to owners. If it is required, they have to provide them. I'll bet it was suggested, not required.

This thread has been very interesting. I'd love to see how other manufacturer's have their tie down points mounted, and why Northwood is making Arctic Fox's one way and Wolf Creeks completely different?

See "Camper Safety Tips" on the last page of their Wolfcreek brochure. It is also in their Arctic Fox brochure. That is from a quick check as I had heard or read it before but could not remember where. "Safety tip" seems more like a bad pun....definitely not a requirement as that would need to be in the warranty I'd think....comes of as a suggestion especially since its in the brochure! The manual that came with my Wolfcreek 850 is an Arctic Fox manual....you have to figure out for yourself what is or is not in (or applicable to) the camper.

Subscribed as this subject needs to be monitored!

joeshmoe wrote:
... Wayne, you said that you don't see anyone offering a "fix" to the problem. Well, most of us "thought" that we had a warranty. We shouldn't have to become engineers and redesign it. Although, I have been thinking about how to fix it myself, I'm not an engineer. But I do have a pretty decent grasp on many things mechanical.

Without reviewing my previous post, I do not recall posting I don't see anyone offering a "fix" to the problem. But I do think that is a valid statement. Personally, I would simply do the repair, and then go camping. To be fair, each of us have different skills, and what might be simple for some would be very difficult for others. I am puzzled that the "engineers" that have posted have not offered a fix. I have purposely not offered a fix, with the thought that those with engineering degrees will step up. Respectfully, I see the entire damage/repair issue as a nuisance and easy repair.

joeshmoe wrote:
Frankly, when you buy and pay thousands of $$$ for something, you'd think that it would include not having to redesign and fabricate a better solution than the people who made it.

You would think so, but fact is you might have to redesign and fabricate a better solution than the people who made it, or accept and live with what you buy.

joeshmoe wrote:
Is that what we've come to in this country? I DID NOT agree to 'some repair may be required--at your time and cost'.

It is not only what we've come to in this country, but the way it has always been, as far as I can tell. I think we are more aware than in times past, simply due to improved means of communication.

You say you did not agree to 'some repair may be required--at your time and cost', but unless it was written otherwise in you contract, you did agree.

Please do understand joeshmoe, I mean no disrespect in any way and I will accept being thought of as having a negative outlook. Fact is, I am of the belief anyone that provides a service or product does so with the primary objective it being profitable. Without profitability, how could anyone stay in business? Like it or not, the fact is we seldom make our purchasing decisions on tangible reality. We typically have aesthetics as the primary concern, and the sales hype being secondary. All to often, we become experts based on misinformation, catchy phrases, and sales hype.

Wayne