Brake Upgrade 2012 F250
I want to upgrade my brakes for better stopping power and better feel. Any thoughts as to what's the best route? I'm willing to change whatever I need to not just the pads. Thanks
Forum Discussion
Braking performance is more important to me than go power...and braking
is a performance criteria
There is much more to it than just the ability to initiate ABS and/or
skid the tires
Many of today's vehicles can NOT initiate ABS at will
The tires are only one limiting component. Its tread type, actual
traction ability, the circumstances, vehicle size/weight/etc, braking
system: components/sub-systems/friction materials/etc
The friction material specification...it's performance curves with
FPM, temp (ambient, cast iron surface, friction material and on that
the ranges thoughout the 'thickness' or 'mass' of those components),
PSI, flexure, hardness, out-gas routing, etc matters
The thermal management characteristics of all. Mainly thermal inertia
of both the metal and friction material. Inertia as in enough mass to
draw in the heat quickly, hold it to reject it via surface radiation/
convection and/or conduction (why some disc/hub assemblies has heat
dams to keep from over heating the bearings in the hub)
All of that boils down to modulation and that is factored by temp
and PSI
"Better feel" is one of the OP's comments and some of the advice so
far is good. There is a potential for the caliper to bend at the
bridge between the piston side and anvil side (GM's GMT400's were/are
horrible in that regard and is the main issue with that era's bad
braking)
"Better feel's" food chain begins there, at the caliper. The hoses
and tubing are next. From tubing too large in dia to the hoses aging
to balloon. In older designs, the welded to frame rail brackets pinched
off the hoses when the brackets rusted. That then either or both felt
'soft' as it built up PSI to get past that blockage/pinch...to holding
PSI to over heat the calipers
Why performance hoses do better. They have a better molded in spiral
wire to keep the hose from ballooning as much as lower grade hoses.
Mostly sold with external surface SS woven braid
Up at the MC...I'd ask if this vehicle has the integrated trailer
brake controller? Most OEM trailer brakes has their input sense via
MC PSI. It can leak PSI(my experience in controls for steel forming
had my hydraulic systems weakest link the PSI sensor) at the sensor.
Not leak fluid, or much fluid to be noticeable, but leak into the
electronics area. Even up the wires insulation...note that some folks
mess up their new O2 sensor by closing off the ambient O2 source the
the sensor uses for reference...by crimping a new lug on the O2 wires
It gets the external reference O2 via the wire
There might be a tiny, tiny leak in one of the brake line runs. Or
at a junction. Not enough to leak out enough to notice, but enough to
allow a tiny, tiny bit of fluid out and moisture & air in. That will
make the pedal feel 'soft'. It can even seal itself. Been there done
that with the Dune Buggy I made.
If the rotors have been turned too often and/or they took too much off
the friction surface maybe too thin and allows the 'plates' to deform
into the centrifugal vane areas when hot. Thinning reduces the disc's
ability to move heat to the centrifugal fins and at times feels like
warped rotors
Going to after market, multi piston calipers, etc will increase your
up front cost and maintenance costs. Most require you to buy replacement
pads from them. They are not cheap, but well worth it, IMHO. Careful
on that, as multi piston will require more fluid flow and some MCs
will not supply enough. The hydraulic ratios between the MC's bores
and calipers bores may not match and the pedal will go farther down
than with OEM.
Maintenance...
When was the last time your braking system was flushed? Including
the ABS system, but that doesn't need to be done as often
What kind of brake fluid? Bryan's suggestion of DOT 5.1 is good and
make sure it is *NOT* silicone based
What kind of friction material? If 'performance' or 'race', they they
will perform poorly when cold...until whatever temp they come on
Allowing the friction material to get too thin will also brake poorly
They will transmit heat quickly to the pistons, and the fluid. They
will also heat up quickly to out-gas and float the friction material
off the disc
What did you or the brake mechanic do to the calipers the last time
you had friction material changed (pads)? Unless you have fixed calipers,
most OEM calipers are single piston and not fixed. They 'float' to
keep centered as the pads wear. That has slides that the caliper
floats on to center.
Many times, the brake mechanics do NOT either replace with new, or
rebuild well.
Even a sticking caliper will display these issues.
Oh, assuming stock and no after market modifications and no 20's, right?
is a performance criteria
There is much more to it than just the ability to initiate ABS and/or
skid the tires
Many of today's vehicles can NOT initiate ABS at will
The tires are only one limiting component. Its tread type, actual
traction ability, the circumstances, vehicle size/weight/etc, braking
system: components/sub-systems/friction materials/etc
The friction material specification...it's performance curves with
FPM, temp (ambient, cast iron surface, friction material and on that
the ranges thoughout the 'thickness' or 'mass' of those components),
PSI, flexure, hardness, out-gas routing, etc matters
The thermal management characteristics of all. Mainly thermal inertia
of both the metal and friction material. Inertia as in enough mass to
draw in the heat quickly, hold it to reject it via surface radiation/
convection and/or conduction (why some disc/hub assemblies has heat
dams to keep from over heating the bearings in the hub)
All of that boils down to modulation and that is factored by temp
and PSI
"Better feel" is one of the OP's comments and some of the advice so
far is good. There is a potential for the caliper to bend at the
bridge between the piston side and anvil side (GM's GMT400's were/are
horrible in that regard and is the main issue with that era's bad
braking)
"Better feel's" food chain begins there, at the caliper. The hoses
and tubing are next. From tubing too large in dia to the hoses aging
to balloon. In older designs, the welded to frame rail brackets pinched
off the hoses when the brackets rusted. That then either or both felt
'soft' as it built up PSI to get past that blockage/pinch...to holding
PSI to over heat the calipers
Why performance hoses do better. They have a better molded in spiral
wire to keep the hose from ballooning as much as lower grade hoses.
Mostly sold with external surface SS woven braid
Up at the MC...I'd ask if this vehicle has the integrated trailer
brake controller? Most OEM trailer brakes has their input sense via
MC PSI. It can leak PSI(my experience in controls for steel forming
had my hydraulic systems weakest link the PSI sensor) at the sensor.
Not leak fluid, or much fluid to be noticeable, but leak into the
electronics area. Even up the wires insulation...note that some folks
mess up their new O2 sensor by closing off the ambient O2 source the
the sensor uses for reference...by crimping a new lug on the O2 wires
It gets the external reference O2 via the wire
There might be a tiny, tiny leak in one of the brake line runs. Or
at a junction. Not enough to leak out enough to notice, but enough to
allow a tiny, tiny bit of fluid out and moisture & air in. That will
make the pedal feel 'soft'. It can even seal itself. Been there done
that with the Dune Buggy I made.
If the rotors have been turned too often and/or they took too much off
the friction surface maybe too thin and allows the 'plates' to deform
into the centrifugal vane areas when hot. Thinning reduces the disc's
ability to move heat to the centrifugal fins and at times feels like
warped rotors
Going to after market, multi piston calipers, etc will increase your
up front cost and maintenance costs. Most require you to buy replacement
pads from them. They are not cheap, but well worth it, IMHO. Careful
on that, as multi piston will require more fluid flow and some MCs
will not supply enough. The hydraulic ratios between the MC's bores
and calipers bores may not match and the pedal will go farther down
than with OEM.
Maintenance...
When was the last time your braking system was flushed? Including
the ABS system, but that doesn't need to be done as often
What kind of brake fluid? Bryan's suggestion of DOT 5.1 is good and
make sure it is *NOT* silicone based
What kind of friction material? If 'performance' or 'race', they they
will perform poorly when cold...until whatever temp they come on
Allowing the friction material to get too thin will also brake poorly
They will transmit heat quickly to the pistons, and the fluid. They
will also heat up quickly to out-gas and float the friction material
off the disc
What did you or the brake mechanic do to the calipers the last time
you had friction material changed (pads)? Unless you have fixed calipers,
most OEM calipers are single piston and not fixed. They 'float' to
keep centered as the pads wear. That has slides that the caliper
floats on to center.
Many times, the brake mechanics do NOT either replace with new, or
rebuild well.
Even a sticking caliper will display these issues.
Oh, assuming stock and no after market modifications and no 20's, right?
