Diesel Tuners

Bob Vaughn wrote:
I received an email and video from Trailer Life about Bully Dog GT tuners for diesel engines. It all sounds good but I have been warned that the warranty would be voided if I use a tuner. Now I wonder if this is true. If so then I guess I will have to wait until my warranty is up. It is 699 bucks and I wonder if there is enough of a fuel economy savings to ever break even?

I used a Hypermax ECON tuner on my 6.0 Powerstroke. The good news is that it picked up my mileage by 2-3 MPG and gave my noticeably more torque.

The bad news is that I blew a head gasket and the shop said it was because of the tuner. $7500 for the repair bill

I can't answer this question as it pertains to the new models. My truck is 14 years old, has 186K miles, and I have been running a chip on it from DP Tuner. It is amazing how much of an effect it has on the power, and the mileage is better. Despite not having all the new upgrades and features the new trucks have, it runs great.

As to the question of whether it will pay for itself with improved mileage. The answer is this: Yes, no, or maybe. I have had my chip on for 8 years/ 100K miles now. It probably paid for itself in the first few years, but with the chip you are guaranteed to drive it differently, so it is nearly impossible to say. The first few years I drove it in the economy setting and I got far better mileage. I now always drive it in Economy setting and ignore other settings, including 'Tow' and 'Race,' even when towing I tow in Economy and get 13.5 mpg (hand calculated) towing a 11500 lb. fifth wheel. Not towing I get 17 mpg in town and on a recent long unloaded trip not towing, 23 mpg with the cruise set at 75MPH.

As for the yes, no, maybe... Yes you can pay for it eventually. No, you will eventually drive it differently and faster, thus using more fuel. Maybe, if you don't use the advantages of the additional power, you can reduce the operating cost, save money and eventually pay for it. They will produce more addictive power, and the manufacturers are well aware of it. Just look at the games they play with it. Remember the 390/397/400 hp competition between GM and Ford a few years ago? They are only concerned about cost per unit reductions leading to more profit.

Yeah some of the gas technology these days is pretty cool.... For gas ;)

John, agree 100%

Boy Racers knew/understood most of this and the inherent risk management
(gambling) decisions

Also agree timing is the biggest bang for the buck and the bottom line for that
is increasing PSI on the piston

In the not too distant past, premium & lower stat were required.

The OEMs fixed that by making the new stats almost impossible to fiddle with and
that there are no longer lower temp stats available. I modify mine (GMT400) by
drilling holes on the flange of a 180* stat

SMOG is no longer just a Calif requirement, but all states. Diesels are now
tested in 'some' states/areas (know you know this, but for those who don't)

Diesel SMOG is now settling down just like gassers after the 1980 SMOG mandates,
but the level of power available is going to continue to be lower than pre-SMOG.
Unlike gassers...or maybe they will figure that out too

Pre-chambers are in the works, but think GDICI will come out before
pre-chambers makes it to volume production. Diesels do not have
anything in the pipe that I can find. Since GDICI's power curves looks
so much like diesel, thing diesel will see lots of folks jump back to
gasoline...but GDICI's SMOG profile now looks much like diesel, think
more work will product onerous SMOG whatevers for GDICI

There is a need for higher performance (speed and recycle times) diesel injectors
to pre-start way before the traditional diesel advance...to the traditional
big squirt of diesel

Know that some of the piston & CC work on gasser GDICI will make it's way to diesel

Back on topic...boy racers knew most of what you say about gauges (why, HOW2
manage, etc). I'm seeing none boy racers jumping and not truly understanding
HOW2

Not just WOT, but high throttle settings and not just boulevard cruising, but
towing several tons on inclines, high ambients, etc for hours and hours on end

There are some safeties, aka limiters, that have to be modifed, but my custom tuning experience has taught me that OEM timing is the biggest factor in available power. Using 100% stock fuel quantity and pressure my 05 is able to make at least 55 more hp right where is counts, 1800-2200 rpms, to the ground.

Emissions dictates a lot for how the combustion event takes place inside the cylinder, and most of it decreases the power/efficiency.

Consider that Cummins makes a 480hp 5.9 and 550hp 6.7 for the marine application, the components are stronger than what is made in a pickup. Yes there are some differences in how a boat motor and truck motor use power, but it's still a substantial amount of power over the pickup ratings.

Many of the limiters/safeties are there to protect the engine and drivetrain under WOT driving at GCWR. Many people don't want, or feel the need, to monitor additional gauges when they change the tuning. IMHO even a simple 40hp tune needs additional monitoring, especially when towing.

Many people also get caught up in how easy it is to add hp to a diesel, and go to the highest setting on day one with a stock turbo/trans and no gauges.. and then wonder why they blew a trans or melted a piston.

OEM engineers 'can' design the best in the world, but management (bean
counters) dictate the cheapest that will pass the regulatory agency
mandated certification testing...plus a bit of design margin to allow
it to go past warranty.

'How much' is the biggie in all product team discussions which has
'service' division requirements.

The 'apparent' willy-nilly changes in ratings is the OEM's marketing
playing with that design margin in concert with sign off from the
service division (lawyers are there throughout). I've chaired product
teams where service was 'told' to sign...even over their exec's objections

This topic is about diesel tuners, so anyone ever wonder where that
'extra' power comes from?

Some or the majority of it comes from the tuner software changing
and/or removing the safeties dialed in by the OEM. Meaning the levels
of limp mode are removed and power mode is now allowed in more situations
that would have had the OEM software deny it

Most don't own their trucks long enough to suffer the consequences of
consuming the design margins, so they see it as power left on the
negotiation table by the OEM

The down stream owners are the ones who will suffer the consequences

Why do you think there are now becoming more and more thread from folks asking if they should by 'this used truck'....with the correct
answers/advice asking if that truck has been chipped/tuned/etc

N-Trouble wrote:

wintersun wrote:
It is not credible that some guy has discovered something about how to change the tuning of an engine that escaped the hundreds of professional full time engineers at the auto and engine manufacturers.

If this line of thinking were true then we would not have any type of "aftermarket" for ANYTHING because the manufacturers would be producing the very best possible components for our trucks directly from the factory. THat is what your statement implies... If so I have a set of 6mo old factory GM shocks I will sell you off my 2500HD for the price of a new set of Bilsteins. Because afterall GM engineers should know how to build a better shock than Bilstein right???

Do you see how your argument just fell apart right there?

wintersun wrote:
It is not credible that some guy has discovered something about how to change the tuning of an engine that escaped the hundreds of professional full time engineers at the auto and engine manufacturers.

If this line of thinking were true then we would not have any type of "aftermarket" for ANYTHING because the manufacturers would be producing the very best possible components for our trucks directly from the factory. THat is what your statement implies... If so I have a set of 6mo old factory GM shocks I will sell you off my 2500HD for the price of a new set of Bilsteins. Because afterall GM engineers should know how to build a better shock than Bilstein right???

Do you see how your argument just fell apart right there?

Bionic Man wrote:

2oldman wrote:

wintersun wrote:
It is not credible that some guy has discovered something about how to change the tuning of an engine that escaped the hundreds of professional full time engineers at the auto and engine manufacturers.

It's only credible to those who believe in conspiracies.

Actually, it makes sense to me. Tuners play by different rules. "Offroad use only". You can do a lot if you don't pay attention to EPA regulations.

Even playing by the rules and keeping current emissions intact there are several tuners (PPEI, DmaxTuner, ATP) that are getting really good numbers out of the Dmax/Allison platform without sacrificing mileage or driveability. SO its not all about EPA/emissions...

You also have to consider the fact manufacturers tune these trucks with warranties in mind as they can be a significant cost adder to the manufacturer if they are accelerating failures that can occur on their dime within the warranty period and not the consumers.

My experience:

Voided warranty = no
Increased mileage = not very noticeable either way and I really wasn't concerned since I run B-100 for the last 400k or so

I did EFI Live because it enabled me to tune in a turbo brake on my 2006 and allowed us to avoid the dreaded sooted/clogged turbo that plagued the 2007.5 Cummins. Gonna be 9 years and they're still running strong and have good oil analysis from Blackstone.

Edit: I can't really claim B-100 for the whole 400k because we have to blend during the cold weather.

I've had a Hypertech programmer on my 2005 Duramax for over 80K miles now, and have not had an issue. I run it on either stage 2 or 3 for daily use, and only stage 2 when towing. Hypertech indicates it's the only tuner you can safely tow with on any stage, but I only use stage 2 to tow with and am very happy with that.

It's not the most powerful programmer/tuner you can get, but Stage 3 is a real kicker (+87 HP and +173TQ). Stage 2 gives 52 HP and 108TQ. It is an absolute difference in power.

The programmer takes a snapshot of the OEM programming before applying its settings. I can restore the original programming at any time, which I do when getting smogged here in CA, and has always passed. Then I just reprogram to stage 2 or 3.

As far as mileage is concerned, I couldn't tell you (though it's certainly not any worse), but that's not why I got it. Actually, the main reason I got it was because my speedo was off when I changed to larger 285 tires many years ago, and wanted something to adjust the speedo. I went to a race shop and they a Hypertech product to do that, but for not much more I could get the full power tuner included, so I opted for that, and am very glad I did.