Diesel vs gas for truck campers?
Have posted a few questios phere on the truck camper forum asking for help in down sizing to a TC and thanks for the help so far, I have been going over the weights of the TC's that we have looked at...
Forum Discussion
Hey All,
First off, to each their own as we all have different needs, goals and values...and budgets both in initial purchase, daily use and down stream costs. On that note I thought I would share several points and my thoughts on my decision making in selecting a rig for my needs.
To me...if towing 20-30k miles a year, make a living with it, live out of it or tow excessive loads...especially in the mountains...I wholeheartedly agree with a diesel. If not doing any of the above...I personally (JMHO) have a harder time cost justifying diesels...for the extra fuel cost, regular maintenance cost, repair cost and the on average additional $10k cost...used or new.
However I am surprised in all these pages of posts that no one has mentioned the low revving torque monster GM 8.1L gasser with the amazing Allison trans. (same as the Duramax.) Terrible gas mileage but they work...I'm not so sure any of them are great for mileage when towing or hauling.
Next, my personal needs were to use a truck to hunt in Utah snow & mud as well as haul Travel Trailers', Toy-Haulers, hay, wood, 4-horse trailers. When I when I was looking at various 2500HD tow rigs, I was really up in the air as to what my next rig would be as the 1500 just wasn't cutting it for my evolving needs. I was mainly deciding between a Dodge Cummins of various years, Duramax/Allison combo and...8.1L/Allison combo (2000'-2007') Wasn't interested in a Dodge gasser, Ford 6.0L PS diesel or the earlier 6.7 PS diesels & couldn't afford the newer ones. For various reasons the Dodge eventually fell out of the running even though I think they have a fantastic diesel.
My belief is that half the secret to the GM Duramax is not just the motor, but the Allison tranny & Corp 14 bolt rear end. Many people don't know that the GM 8.1L gasser has the same Allison tranny as the Duramax and...trucks only. (The SUV & Avalanche 8.1L didn't get the Allison nor did the GM trucks with 6.0L gas does NOT have this trans either. They still have the relatively bulletproof 4L80-E automatic but isn't rated to handle the increased torque of the other two GM 2500HD motors in this application.)
Arguably the Allison may be one of the best trans ever made for any truck for work/towing & was an industry game changer and pushed Ford & Dodge to catch up in this area. JMHO. Additional plusses of the Allison is evenly spaced gear ratios and engine grade braking. (In Tow-Haul mode.) Also, while I have not done this, my understanding is that the Allison trans also offers a bolt-on power take-off feature that allows owners to run PTO-driven equipment such as a hydraulic pump on-site via instrument panel-mounted PTO controls.
My needs... were to pull, a 4 horse trailer, haul/tow occasion load of hay/wood, pull ATV's/snowmobiles as well as a 6700#/32' travel trailer...but for only a total of 4k-7k miles a year max...in and around the mountains of Utah. (Your driving at least 1 pass each way it seems.) Around the same time, I was rebuilding my 2003 GMC Yukon XL's 5.3L's top end ($1,850) and rebuilt the tranny 6 months later ($2,200). Additionally, two different friends were having work done on their Duramax's. One had injectors pumps etc. done for north of $4,500k & another had the top end done for about $4,900. WOW! Of note, IF...you ever had to do all injectors on a GM gasser, it is less than $1k and is essentially DIY plug and play. Of course you virtually will never need to replace all 8 injectors in a gasser ever...maybe 1-2. Fuel pumps...yes but cheaper and doable as well. Then I checked on doing the top end on the GM 8.1L gas...$2-$2.5k. Hmmm...now I was thinking...
Next, I spent a couple of hours polling ALL the mechanics & service managers at my local friendly GM dealers. Interestingly, through the years, they had ALL owned Duramax's including newer ones but with the exception of one mechanic, they had all sold them and instead had bought 8.1L/Allison combo's for towing/hauling etc. some times actually buying an older truck than the Duramax they had sold. Again, a comparable Duramax vs the 8.1L is $10,000 more whether new or used.
FYI in 2001: (The year of truck I ended up buying used.)
GM 6.0 L gas = 360 # torque, towing 9,200-10,500 pounds with 4.10 rear
GM 8.1L gas = 455 # torque & nets an impressive 12,000 $ towing capacity regardless of cab style or bed length.
GM Duramax 6.6L diesel = 520 # torque & rated to tow the same amount in all configurations with its standard 3.73 rear axle ratio.
"With a Fifth Wheel trailer & 4.10 gears the numbers go even higher; able to tow a 15,500-pound trailer of this type. That rating goes down 2,000 pounds with the taller 3.73 ratio. The truck with the highest Fifth-Wheel towing-capacity honors goes to a regular-cab long-bed Silverado 2500 HD with the Vortec 8.1L engine and 4.10 gears. It'll tow a whopping 15,900 pounds — more than any of the one-ton trucks or even any of the diesels."
While the Duramax's mpg is all over the place depending on chipping, gears, towing or not towing, loaded or not it tends to be better than the 2 gas offerings when empty but similar when towing equally heavy loads....no matter which chip/setting etc...according to my VP of Sales Edge Chip neighbor. Also, while some will brag about getting 20-25 mpg towing up hill...in a head wind...while pulling 15,000 pounds...he tells me not possible. ;)
The 8.1L gas is consistently around 10-12 empty...8-10 towing...it sucks but easier to swallow if you have the long box (35 gallon tank and not driving so far empty or as a daily town driver.) I also think the extra gas cost when not hauling or towing, worth it compared to the upfront and down stream cost of diesels...again for my needs...and the amount I drive it. YMMV etc. BTW, the 6.0L is 1-2 more mpg but is very high revving and while it is solid, has a lesser trans. BTW...after a cold air intake, K/N didn't, cat back dual exhaust...mileage didn't change at all. Going the other way...even with an +8" lift & 35" tires I don't think my mileage changed 0.5 mpg...its just always bad. LOL :)
Now...a ton of words later, I am here as I'm looking at hauling a TC while towing 2 quads or a very light boat. And like many when purchasing, I didn't pay as much attention to pay loads as torque & towing capabilities. While not ruling out a diesel after eventual retirement when I may live out of a rig while traveling, I think that I will still be fine. I will likely continue to run my GM 2500 HD, Crew-Cab, LB, 8.1L gasser for quite a while but thought I would share my decision making process and input on what rig I chose.
All the best!
TOU
First off, to each their own as we all have different needs, goals and values...and budgets both in initial purchase, daily use and down stream costs. On that note I thought I would share several points and my thoughts on my decision making in selecting a rig for my needs.
To me...if towing 20-30k miles a year, make a living with it, live out of it or tow excessive loads...especially in the mountains...I wholeheartedly agree with a diesel. If not doing any of the above...I personally (JMHO) have a harder time cost justifying diesels...for the extra fuel cost, regular maintenance cost, repair cost and the on average additional $10k cost...used or new.
However I am surprised in all these pages of posts that no one has mentioned the low revving torque monster GM 8.1L gasser with the amazing Allison trans. (same as the Duramax.) Terrible gas mileage but they work...I'm not so sure any of them are great for mileage when towing or hauling.
Next, my personal needs were to use a truck to hunt in Utah snow & mud as well as haul Travel Trailers', Toy-Haulers, hay, wood, 4-horse trailers. When I when I was looking at various 2500HD tow rigs, I was really up in the air as to what my next rig would be as the 1500 just wasn't cutting it for my evolving needs. I was mainly deciding between a Dodge Cummins of various years, Duramax/Allison combo and...8.1L/Allison combo (2000'-2007') Wasn't interested in a Dodge gasser, Ford 6.0L PS diesel or the earlier 6.7 PS diesels & couldn't afford the newer ones. For various reasons the Dodge eventually fell out of the running even though I think they have a fantastic diesel.
My belief is that half the secret to the GM Duramax is not just the motor, but the Allison tranny & Corp 14 bolt rear end. Many people don't know that the GM 8.1L gasser has the same Allison tranny as the Duramax and...trucks only. (The SUV & Avalanche 8.1L didn't get the Allison nor did the GM trucks with 6.0L gas does NOT have this trans either. They still have the relatively bulletproof 4L80-E automatic but isn't rated to handle the increased torque of the other two GM 2500HD motors in this application.)
Arguably the Allison may be one of the best trans ever made for any truck for work/towing & was an industry game changer and pushed Ford & Dodge to catch up in this area. JMHO. Additional plusses of the Allison is evenly spaced gear ratios and engine grade braking. (In Tow-Haul mode.) Also, while I have not done this, my understanding is that the Allison trans also offers a bolt-on power take-off feature that allows owners to run PTO-driven equipment such as a hydraulic pump on-site via instrument panel-mounted PTO controls.
My needs... were to pull, a 4 horse trailer, haul/tow occasion load of hay/wood, pull ATV's/snowmobiles as well as a 6700#/32' travel trailer...but for only a total of 4k-7k miles a year max...in and around the mountains of Utah. (Your driving at least 1 pass each way it seems.) Around the same time, I was rebuilding my 2003 GMC Yukon XL's 5.3L's top end ($1,850) and rebuilt the tranny 6 months later ($2,200). Additionally, two different friends were having work done on their Duramax's. One had injectors pumps etc. done for north of $4,500k & another had the top end done for about $4,900. WOW! Of note, IF...you ever had to do all injectors on a GM gasser, it is less than $1k and is essentially DIY plug and play. Of course you virtually will never need to replace all 8 injectors in a gasser ever...maybe 1-2. Fuel pumps...yes but cheaper and doable as well. Then I checked on doing the top end on the GM 8.1L gas...$2-$2.5k. Hmmm...now I was thinking...
Next, I spent a couple of hours polling ALL the mechanics & service managers at my local friendly GM dealers. Interestingly, through the years, they had ALL owned Duramax's including newer ones but with the exception of one mechanic, they had all sold them and instead had bought 8.1L/Allison combo's for towing/hauling etc. some times actually buying an older truck than the Duramax they had sold. Again, a comparable Duramax vs the 8.1L is $10,000 more whether new or used.
FYI in 2001: (The year of truck I ended up buying used.)
GM 6.0 L gas = 360 # torque, towing 9,200-10,500 pounds with 4.10 rear
GM 8.1L gas = 455 # torque & nets an impressive 12,000 $ towing capacity regardless of cab style or bed length.
GM Duramax 6.6L diesel = 520 # torque & rated to tow the same amount in all configurations with its standard 3.73 rear axle ratio.
"With a Fifth Wheel trailer & 4.10 gears the numbers go even higher; able to tow a 15,500-pound trailer of this type. That rating goes down 2,000 pounds with the taller 3.73 ratio. The truck with the highest Fifth-Wheel towing-capacity honors goes to a regular-cab long-bed Silverado 2500 HD with the Vortec 8.1L engine and 4.10 gears. It'll tow a whopping 15,900 pounds — more than any of the one-ton trucks or even any of the diesels."
While the Duramax's mpg is all over the place depending on chipping, gears, towing or not towing, loaded or not it tends to be better than the 2 gas offerings when empty but similar when towing equally heavy loads....no matter which chip/setting etc...according to my VP of Sales Edge Chip neighbor. Also, while some will brag about getting 20-25 mpg towing up hill...in a head wind...while pulling 15,000 pounds...he tells me not possible. ;)
The 8.1L gas is consistently around 10-12 empty...8-10 towing...it sucks but easier to swallow if you have the long box (35 gallon tank and not driving so far empty or as a daily town driver.) I also think the extra gas cost when not hauling or towing, worth it compared to the upfront and down stream cost of diesels...again for my needs...and the amount I drive it. YMMV etc. BTW, the 6.0L is 1-2 more mpg but is very high revving and while it is solid, has a lesser trans. BTW...after a cold air intake, K/N didn't, cat back dual exhaust...mileage didn't change at all. Going the other way...even with an +8" lift & 35" tires I don't think my mileage changed 0.5 mpg...its just always bad. LOL :)
Now...a ton of words later, I am here as I'm looking at hauling a TC while towing 2 quads or a very light boat. And like many when purchasing, I didn't pay as much attention to pay loads as torque & towing capabilities. While not ruling out a diesel after eventual retirement when I may live out of a rig while traveling, I think that I will still be fine. I will likely continue to run my GM 2500 HD, Crew-Cab, LB, 8.1L gasser for quite a while but thought I would share my decision making process and input on what rig I chose.
All the best!
TOU
