Forum Discussion
valhalla360 wrote:
ShinerBock wrote:
I am not an EV or ICE hater. I am a realist though and dislike people making false claims to make their side look better ...........
Excellent summary of the problem of EV discussions and it plays out on the marketing departments being very much guilty of the same issue.
Overstating the capabilities creates distrust and hurts marketing because unless you are a true acolyte, you can see thru the BS.
Instead, focus on what they do well and admit the limitations and you could build an market where they are very much viable.
- If I needed a commuter car (2 car family), I would be all over an EV with a 100-150 mile range that costs the same or less than equivalent gas car and by limiting the range, you bring costs way down which makes it even more viable to market.
- When the acolytes push towing (there are a few who speak honestly but they are often drowned out), it's obvious there are severe limitations that 99.99% of people can't/won't accept. The harder they push, the more obvious it becomes that they aren't being honest.
Then it give ammunition to those who are simply anti-EV without good reason to sow further distrust.
While most RV trips are under 200miles, I know very few RVers who don't take at least a 300-400mile trip per year (often 1000-3000mile trip each year). So short of renting an ICE truck for those longer trips, it's not viable for the vast majority of RVers. That may change but it actually hurts adoption by pushing the theme.
100% agree. The more you lie about something, the worst it gets and the more fire you give to the other side. Just be honest with facts, and understand that when it comes to opinions that other can disagree without being hated. Of course, we can all be wrong with what we thought was truthful information. This has happen to me many times. This is different than purposely stating a lie. Then there is the factor of separating what is subjective and objective. Some people seem to have a hard time discerning be the two and believe that their opinions are hard facts.valhalla360 wrote:
Now add in the $0.184 federal gas tax...I was rounding to figure around $0.50 gal, so about $2/gal which up until the last year or so has been fairly typical. The exact percentage will vary as most are per gal, not per dollar taxes.
The problem is 40-50mpg cars are also common place so highway funding is already struggling. Currently, it's the high MPG gas cars but EVs paying nothing are justifiably viewed as not paying their fair share and there are moves to correct it.
I am not sure I can agree with the "fair share" part in regards to fuel efficient ICE/Hybrid vehicles. My BMW 328d gets 47 mpg combined and weighs 3,250 which is on the heavy side of most ICE vehicles that get around that mileage. Looking at the comparative damage chart below from an article I read about this years ago, it is doing about .45 comparative level of damage to the roads. My 8,500 lb Ram 2500 that gets 17 mpg combined is doing 21.3 comparative level of damage. So the car only getting 2.76 times better fuel economy, yet the truck is doing 47.4 times the comparative level of damage. Based on this, I would say my fuel efficient car is paying its fair share of it's comparative level of damage.
An EV on the other hand is pretty heavy and I 100% agree with you here. The extended range Lightning clocks in at 6,500 lbs and would be doing some extensive damage to the roads without paying fuel tax.
ShinerBock wrote:
I am not an EV or ICE hater. I am a realist though and dislike people making false claims to make their side look better ...........
Excellent summary of the problem of EV discussions and it plays out on the marketing departments being very much guilty of the same issue.
Overstating the capabilities creates distrust and hurts marketing because unless you are a true acolyte, you can see thru the BS.
Instead, focus on what they do well and admit the limitations and you could build an market where they are very much viable.
- If I needed a commuter car (2 car family), I would be all over an EV with a 100-150 mile range that costs the same or less than equivalent gas car and by limiting the range, you bring costs way down which makes it even more viable to market.
- When the acolytes push towing (there are a few who speak honestly but they are often drowned out), it's obvious there are severe limitations that 99.99% of people can't/won't accept. The harder they push, the more obvious it becomes that they aren't being honest.
Then it give ammunition to those who are simply anti-EV without good reason to sow further distrust.
While most RV trips are under 200miles, I know very few RVers who don't take at least a 300-400mile trip per year (often 1000-3000mile trip each year). So short of renting an ICE truck for those longer trips, it's not viable for the vast majority of RVers. That may change but it actually hurts adoption by pushing the theme.JRscooby wrote:
Taxes historically 25% the cost of gas? I thing the average of states it comes out to under $0.30 per gallon. (Somewhat higher for diesel) That means a pump price of $1.20.
While sometime soon the % of electric vehicles will harm highway funding it will be a long time before it catches up with the change over the last few decades. There was a time when a car averaging 20 MPG was thought cheap to drive. Now must get near 50 to reach that label
Now add in the $0.184 federal gas tax...I was rounding to figure around $0.50 gal, so about $2/gal which up until the last year or so has been fairly typical. The exact percentage will vary as most are per gal, not per dollar taxes.
The problem is 40-50mpg cars are also common place so highway funding is already struggling. Currently, it's the high MPG gas cars but EVs paying nothing are justifiably viewed as not paying their fair share and there are moves to correct it.
The all-new Ford F-150 Lightning boasts the Built Ford Tough brawn to tow up to an available 10,000 pounds with its 775 lb.-ft. of electric torque*, but it’s the truck’s brains that will give customers the range information they need to tow long distances**. Ford equipped the electric pickup with smart technologies to more accurately calculate remaining vehicle range using real time conditions so customers can tow with greater confidence – and the more it’s used, the more accurate it gets.
*Torque calculated via peak performance of the electric motors at peak battery power. Your results may vary.
**Max towing on XLT and LARIAT models with available extended-range battery and Max Trailer Tow Pkg. Max towing varies based on cargo, vehicle configuration, accessories and number of passengers. Towing and torque are independent attributes and may not be achieved simultaneously.
video2oldman wrote:
"I could care less" means he does care at least somewhat because it "could be less" :)
and it's "I couldn't care less...."- I am not an EV or ICE hater. I am a realist though and dislike people making false claims to make their side look better which is why I made many posts in the Tesla semi thread because many of the pro-EV'ers were being unrealistic in their claims. This is on both sides thogh and I try to call it out when I see it. Is an EV for everyone? No, and that is not a bad thing. Could certain lifestyles benefit from EV's to help lower emissions? Yes, but not all. That is not a bad thing either because I love hunting/fishing and I see no problem for saving it for my kids and grandkids to enjoy what I have.
I for one will likely replace my diesel car with an EV when it finally gives up the goose many years from now since EV's are ideal as commuter vehicles. On the flip side, I will not be replacing my truck or Jeep with an all EV because it is not ideal for what I tow and how long I tow it regardless of how quick it is or how much money would be saved in fuel. With my lifestyle, an EV would have to be a secondary vehicles which is likely what this Lighting would be for most who reserved them. In fact, I have read that most of the first Tesla owners bought them as second vehicles.
I think EV's have gotten too politicized since a majority of those who own them or are for them only vote for one side of the isle. The negative stigma also comes from a lot of holier than though EV owners or pro EV'ers(not all of them, but most in my experience) which automatically puts ICE owners in defensive mode hating whatever these people are for. The extremist activist don't help the cause either. Don't get me wrong, I am for trying to reduce emissions but with a reasonable approach that accounts for many peoples lifestyles, not the way these extremist want to do it by wanting to force EV's on everyone and vilifying anyone that disagrees with them. What is best for a highly polluted state like California or city like Chicago due to it's population density, may not be best for others who are living in Montana or rural Texas so forcing everyone to the same standards just so you can continue living the city life is asinine. BCSnob wrote:
Why guess on rates?
Lets use a more realistic mpg value for ICEs (I.e. 28mpg).
Electricity Rates in the United StatesTable of Average Electricity Rates by State
Below is the average kWh rate for each state. This is a snapshot of average kWh rates in regulated and deregulated states using data from September 2021 and September 2020 (showing YOY change).
Gasbuddy
CA: $0.199/kWh & >$5.13/gal
KS:$0.1156/kWh & $3.45 to $3.69/gal
One thing is evidently clear; the government will not miss an opportunity to capitalize nor will it tolerate a loss in tax revenue. It's just a matter of time. Who knows when market share of EV's will start to increase enough to matter. But when it does, the tax man will show up.valhalla360 wrote:
When EV's made up 0.01% of the vehicle fleet, taxes were largely ignored. The political will was to encourage them and they made up such a small percentage of the fleet as to have no significant impact on highway funds. As they hit 1-2% and there is the potential for significant growth, people are taking notice, so yes, you should expect to eventually see a tax roughly equivalent to gas taxes. Historically, taxes have made up around 25% of gas prices, so not insignificant.
Taxes historically 25% the cost of gas? I thing the average of states it comes out to under $0.30 per gallon. (Somewhat higher for diesel) That means a pump price of $1.20.
While sometime soon the % of electric vehicles will harm highway funding it will be a long time before it catches up with the change over the last few decades. There was a time when a car averaging 20 MPG was thought cheap to drive. Now must get near 50 to reach that label- Why guess on rates?
Lets use a more realistic mpg value for ICEs (I.e. 28mpg).
Electricity Rates in the United StatesTable of Average Electricity Rates by State
Below is the average kWh rate for each state. This is a snapshot of average kWh rates in regulated and deregulated states using data from September 2021 and September 2020 (showing YOY change).
Gasbuddy
CA: $0.199/kWh & >$5.13/gal
KS:$0.1156/kWh & $3.45 to $3.69/gal
