Forum Discussion
45Ricochet wrote:
FishOnOne wrote:
The bottom line the manufacturer is legally liable for their claims and the safety of the product no matter what method they used to state their ratings.
Looking at the recent HD challenge the RAM that just now claims to meet the J standard was the poorest performer and the GMC that doesn't meet this J standard got the best overall rating and performed better. :h
J2807 isn't speed related rather overall performance with stated weights. I suppose Ford and GM will comply someday when they can prove their vehicles. OBTW I think J2807 really only relates to the 15 series so in reality the 25 & 35 series don't really have to conform to it. Speaks volumes IMO, hows that saying go????? Guts, Glory, Ram or something like that :B
Oh I see Mike Rowe is over on CNN now, the horror :W
Not sure what's holding GM back since they just released a new platform. It doesn't make sense for Ford to be compliant with their outgoing platform as I'm sure all their resources are on the new truck platform.
But again the performance of the GM and Ford appear to be better than the current RAM with the less than 15 ft/lbs so perhaps the next tests will have different results. :W
More to come... :BFishOnOne wrote:
The bottom line the manufacturer is legally liable for their claims and the safety of the product no matter what method they used to state their ratings.
Looking at the recent HD challenge the RAM that just now claims to meet the J standard was the poorest performer and the GMC that doesn't meet this J standard got the best overall rating and performed better. :h
J2807 isn't speed related rather overall performance with stated weights. I suppose Ford and GM will comply someday when they can prove their vehicles. OBTW I think J2807 really only relates to the 15 series so in reality the 25 & 35 series don't really have to conform to it. Speaks volumes IMO, hows that saying go????? Guts, Glory, Ram or something like that :B
Oh I see Mike Rowe is over on CNN now, the horror :W- My guess on why they do this is more than pure marketing against their competition,
which I think is 'now' true...
Back, way back, they actually did have folks who bought the stripper model
and betcha the main seller. AKA the 'curb' vehicle
I used to help prep the 'new' pickup for Uncle Bill's shop. He did
buy the better bumpers and moved them onto the 'new' pickup. Anyone
remember 'Barden' bumpers? He taught me HOW2 fabricate and weld the
bracketry for the bumper vices on them. Ditto the spare and he did
rotate all FIVE as he also knew he got every penny out of tires that way.
So of course they used the base model to derive the ratings.
As more and more folks 'got it' on how useful pickups are...they were also the
types who ordered upscale options that the old did not (they just wanted a work
vehicle)
To today where folks don't consider a base, or curb vehicle
I don't blame the OEMs and again driven by ignorance on how it works and the
inability to read and understand the fine print
All it now takes of for 'one' of the competition to use the 'curb' or 'stripper'
model. How else can they be competitive...especially when most all the buyers
shop using the 'King of the Hill' MTWR and cargo/payload ratings...WITHOUT reading
the fine print, nor understanding what the fine print says
Even the Ram used the 'curb base' model. Maybe not as stripped as GM & Ford,
but it is a 'base' model and on that, only three so far have admitted to owning
a base model here
I don't believe the OEMs actually weigh each vehicle. Can believe that
they 'might' derive the weight via the options ordered/installed and
having the computer do the math adding each/all to derive a weight
against the GVWR...but...don't believe they do so, yet
Until I'm convinced...will continue to advise those asking to go
out and actually weighing their TV/Setup to know where they are in
reference to their ratings.
Also always say to decide if you believe in the ratings system or not
If not, then do whatever, but know you have taken the OEM off the
warranty (if any left) and liability hook
If yes, then learn how the ratings system works. Including reading
and UNDERSTANDING the fine print - The bottom line the manufacturer is legally liable for their claims and the safety of the product no matter what method they used to state their ratings.
Looking at the recent HD challenge the RAM that just now claims to meet the J standard was the poorest performer and the GMC that doesn't meet this J standard got the best overall rating and performed better. :h 45Ricochet wrote:
Flashman wrote:
Maybe this is how Ford's fairy dust really works - they raise their payloads to always be the highest - maybe they just take out another seat - and presto another 100lbs payload.
Hey you just came up with a great idea. How much does a Power Stroke engine weight :W
Power Stroke: 990 lbs
cummins: 1050-1150Flashman wrote:
Maybe this is how Ford's fairy dust really works - they raise their payloads to always be the highest - maybe they just take out another seat - and presto another 100lbs payload.
Hey you just came up with a great idea. How much does a Power Stroke engine weight :W- Don't know how many times I had to watch Mike Rowe talk about Ford best in class payload.
Mike and Ford - Liars. BenK wrote:
Also, the definition of 'curb' is in a fuzzy area. Argued with one
guy here who thought is has to be a model offered for sale. He could
NOT get it, that it was a custom model NEVER offered for sale
Yes, I know, I am that guy who just does NOT get it according to you. Deception is deception Ben, regardless of how you want to spin the story. Pulling parts off to get the payload up is deception. But, what do I know? I guess I just do NOT get it.LarryJM wrote:
azwildcat99 wrote:
The more interesting part is why they did it? They could have very easily just raised the GVWR on the vehicles, right?
We argue, excuse me, discuss weights on this forum all the time with some saying GVWR is king and others saying GAWR and tires are king. I have to admit that this lends a little validation to the GVWR argument, as it would have been much easier to simply raise that rating and get a higher payload than to remove items. Of course they could be trying to lower the weight for other reasons, but the article only talked about raising payload. Thoughts?
You can't just raise the GVWR w/o VERY EXPENSIVE and time consuming Brake certification testing so that a different FMVSS door sticker is allowed.
Larry
Fords markets several F350 SRW trucks with 10000 lb GVWR on up to a 11800 GVWR with the exact same brake specs. Hell even the F250 with its 10000 GVWR has the same brake specs as the F350 SRW.
Remember brakes are specked to their respective axle rating by the vehicle manufacturer. Just like our trailers.- From the article.
"The company (GM) adopted the practice this year to stay competitive when it launched its redesigned full-sized pickups. Ford started using the tactic about four years ago, showing that the maximum payload is larger than would be possible if it used the standard base curb weight of the truck."
Way to go Ford!! When you cheat - you force others to do also.
