Horsepower is horsepower?

pnichols wrote:
Gary,

1) Remember ... no fair comparing an 18-speed diesel with an 18-speed gasser (of equal horsepowers). The gasser may need way more gears to keep horsepower where it needs to be if the gasser doesn't have as flat a torque curve over it's large RPM range as the diesel has across it's narrow RPM range.

2) Remember ... no fair the diesel being a turbo and the gasser not being a turbo ... since a coast to coast trip will involve a lot of mountains.

IDC, put a turbo on the gas motor. It still has to be equal hp to be apple to apple. Put a CVT in it so it can stay in it's hp rating constantly.

Gary,

1) Remember ... no fair comparing an 18-speed diesel with an 18-speed gasser (of equal horsepowers). The gasser may need way more gears to keep horsepower where it needs to be if the gasser doesn't have as flat a torque curve over it's large RPM range as the diesel has across it's narrow RPM range.

2) Remember ... no fair the diesel being a turbo and the gasser not being a turbo ... since a coast to coast trip will involve a lot of mountains.

Hannibal wrote:
My previous trucks are a comparison, not a contest. The '03 250/460 Cummins compared to the '05 345/365 Hemi proved that 100 more hp will out tow 100 more ft/lbs of flywheel torque. Has nothing to do with current diesels or current Hemi powered Rams. I have never said my '05 Hemi powered Ram would out tow a newer HO diesel of any make. Just a comparison to what I've owned. If my little 5.4L doesn't hold up for the long haul, I might look into another Cummins Ram. Dayton Andrews in Clearwater has one just like my '03 except new. As it is, the 5.4L still purs along just fine with our 8500 lb 5th wheel. I haven't heard it scream yet! Nor does a downshift scare the heck out of me.
We used to run with 4.10 rears, smaller 28" OD tires in direct with no overdrive sometimes pushing 90mph out in the sticks. You timid folks wouldn't have survived! I had an F250 with a 300cid/C6 with 4.10 years ago. Never once thought of it as screaming. Same with my '75 B300 Van with 318/auto and 4.10. It didn't scare me either. :B

I wasn't saying it was a contest. I am merely telling someone that say the take your comparison to the bank that your comparison is not apples to apples. The Cummins diesel in 2005 had 325 hp and 610 lbft of torque. Show me where I said anything about your Hemi towing with a newer Diesel. That wouldn't be a fair apple to apple now would it. When you bought your 2010 5.4, did you compare it to a 2010 diesel?

When I said that it scared the heck out of me I meant that while cruising along down the interstate going to a job and thinking about what I was going to do to fix a problem with no radio going when all of a sudden it gears down. Yes it will startle most people.

As far as turning a motor hard, I have turned over 7500 rpm with numerous small block chevys for years. I lived 30 minutes from the nearest town so I know the sticks you are referring to. My first Camaro would run over 75 mph in 1 gear (350 turbo with 3.08:1). It would put a 130 mph speedometer on the very bottom. My cousin had two mid 70's F250's with 390's in them that we tried to blow up. We went as far to put a concrete block on the gas pedal on one of them. It run for 30 minutes and did NOT blow up. I know that the gas motors will turn a lot of RPM and not hurt them but all this stuff we are talking about was playing around for short periods of time. They were also empty and not towing heavy loads. When I'm playing and racing then I like to hear and feel the rpm but when towing I want a motor that tow and not race. A diesel gives you that now days. Maybe not so much a few years ago but now yes.

I tell you what, take two semi tractors with 18 speed transmissions and have one of them have an original 350 hp big truck diesel in it. Take the second one and put a factory spec 350 hp gas in it. Load the two trucks to 80,000 and then take off from coast to coast. See which truck tows the load better. Remember, they have the same hp and plenty of gears to choose from so they will be able to maintain the same speed.

I'm sure your 5.4 purs along just fine with your load, I'm just stating that the same model year diesel will do it easier more efficient and now as quiet if not quieter.

pnichols wrote:

JIMNLIN wrote:
I've yet to see anyone with smallblock gasser in any size LDT pulling combined for a living on any LTL website. There are a couple of members who are still pulling short local runs with the 8.1/V10 at those weights.

I suspect that the main reason for this is - as has been brought up many times in this thread already - is that diesel truck engines with turbo boost have been available for years and years ahead of turbo boost being offered on gasoline truck engines.

The heavy haulers really don't like the horsepower fall-off with altitude you get without turbo because of their trying to tow so much weight relative to their horsepower. For instance, an 80,000 lb. big-rig with only a 700 HP diesel is not going to do as well at all in the High Sierras as compared to an 18,000 RV with a non-turbo 350 HP gasser - IF the 700 HP diesel is NOT turbo boosted.

The diesel versus gasoline discussion might pretty much fall apart if you remove turbo boost from the diesel side of the story. I guess it's tough keeping the comparison to apples versus apples when the only modern diesel apple that manufacturers are offering as of late is turbo boosted diesels.

What the gasser crowd needs is turbo boost on a whole variety of small gas truck engines - just like turbo boost (or supercharging) has been available for a number of years on high performance gas street car engines.

A boosted small block is still a small block and doesn't have the numbers to compete towing at the weights it takes to make a living. My old carbed 460/454 would on average get in the 4-6 mpg range. The trucks were usually wore out at 150k-175k.
The newer gen diesel are pulling 35k+ combined and getting on average 9-11 mpgs and up to 18-20 mpg dead heading for a back load. And most are run over 300k before things like a water pump or injectors start to nickle and dime the operator.

The new gen small block simply is out classed by the new gen diesel which IMO is the point of the OP post.

Hmmm .. I don't get it with all the "screaming" talk relative to scaring or irritating folks to death.

My 2005 V10 E450 ("ton and a half chassis") motorhome with it's 6-speed computer controlled transmission has a 4.58 rear end in it and it just loafs along at around 2100 RPM in OD, quietly, when we're cruising along down the road on trips. The only time it "screams" - and it's not irritating at all to us - is when I need more horsepower from it going up grades so as to put more torque onto the rear drive axles if I want to maintain speed.

I'd guess that's what this long discussion is really all about ... diesel folks not liking the gear shifts you have to put up with when going up hills in a gasser instead of merely pushing in the gas pedal like you have to do with a diesel when going up hills .... assuming equal horsepower between the two engines and low altitudes so the normally asperated gasser doesn't have to unfairly measure up to a turbo boosted diesel.

The conditions talked about in the paragraph above don't mean to me that a diesel "pulls better". What it means to me is that a diesel "pulls different".

ib516 wrote:
IIRC, the last Cummins Hannibal had was a 5.9L Cummins with only 250hp/460tq. If that was the latest diesel he has driven/owned, it doesn't surprise me that he doesn't recall diesels as "powerhouses" when compared to modern gassers.

Heck, the 2014 RAM HD will have a 410hp/429tq 6.4L Hemi available.

They've come a long way since 2003.

That's why you've never seen me post ridiculous statements like "any this will out tow any that". I only post "my" experiences with vehicles that I've owned and towed with. I've made it perfectly clear that my '03 Cummins was a SO and not a HO. I've also stated many times that if we towed much in the mountains, I would own my 5th Cummins powered Ram. There are no surprises. I've always been straight up with my experiences. None of the trucks I've owned have been powerhouses. Especially my current F250. But, it's quiet, reliable, issue free and makes me a lot of money as it doubles as my daily work truck.:B

My previous trucks are a comparison, not a contest. The '03 250/460 Cummins compared to the '05 345/365 Hemi proved that 100 more hp will out tow 100 more ft/lbs of flywheel torque. Has nothing to do with current diesels or current Hemi powered Rams. I have never said my '05 Hemi powered Ram would out tow a newer HO diesel of any make. Just a comparison to what I've owned. If my little 5.4L doesn't hold up for the long haul, I might look into another Cummins Ram. Dayton Andrews in Clearwater has one just like my '03 except new. As it is, the 5.4L still purs along just fine with our 8500 lb 5th wheel. I haven't heard it scream yet! Nor does a downshift scare the heck out of me.
We used to run with 4.10 rears, smaller 28" OD tires in direct with no overdrive sometimes pushing 90mph out in the sticks. You timid folks wouldn't have survived! I had an F250 with a 300cid/C6 with 4.10 years ago. Never once thought of it as screaming. Same with my '75 B300 Van with 318/auto and 4.10. It didn't scare me either. :B

carringb wrote:

transamz9 wrote:
We also have an 01 F350 service truck with the 5.4 in it and it will scare the heck out of you on the interstate when it gears down out of OD on the slightest bit of incline. This is with nothing hooked to it. I quit running it on cruise just so I will know when to expect the sudden scream for mercy when it comes out of OD.

Wait.... a 5.4L in direct is "screaming for mercy?!?! Did you have it straight piped? With stacks pointing at the cab?

@70-75 with 4.11:1 in direct is screaming yes

transamz9 wrote:
We also have an 01 F350 service truck with the 5.4 in it and it will scare the heck out of you on the interstate when it gears down out of OD on the slightest bit of incline. This is with nothing hooked to it. I quit running it on cruise just so I will know when to expect the sudden scream for mercy when it comes out of OD.

Wait.... a 5.4L in direct is "screaming for mercy?!?! Did you have it straight piped? With stacks pointing at the cab?

IIRC, the last Cummins Hannibal had was a 5.9L Cummins with only 250hp/460tq. If that was the latest diesel he has driven/owned, it doesn't surprise me that he doesn't recall diesels as "powerhouses" when compared to modern gassers.

Heck, the 2014 RAM HD will have a 410hp/429tq 6.4L Hemi available.

They've come a long way since 2003.