Leaf Spring & Axle Dilemma

SoundGuy wrote:

JJKM wrote:
... but I am looking at that bronze bushing and wet bolt kit, too.

I installed this Dexter Wet Bolt Kit to my own Spree 240BH-LX when the original nylon bushings wore completely through. We ended up selling the trailer later that year so I never had the opportunity to see the results over the longer term but I'm sure it would have been much better than those nylon bushings.

LarryJM wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
OK. I used springs as an example.(they seem to be the most common reason) It could be any of the items I mentioned that was the limiting factor. Perhaps they bolted better brakes on it, or spec'ed better bearings. None of these things are really smoke and mirrors. They are all perfectly acceptable ways to increase an axle rating.

Well for some reason either I'm not explaining it right or you're misunderstanding. Henschen as the basic axle manufacturer like say AIM for FORD vehicle axles, actually is the manufacturer of the basic axle that other take and add all those items such as brakes, bearings, hubs to to produce a functional axle and the basic axle for torsion axles as I understand it is a function of the axle tube diameter and the torsion rubber that is inside it at the time of actual manufacture. That is why the tag is not something that is stuck on like that Lippert tag on my axle, but something that is WELDED ON in stamped metal. This would sort of be like taking a tire and them putting a sticker on it changing the load information that is molded into the tire to something that is higher. I would call that smoke and mirror since I can't and don't see where you have explained how this could have been done with the example I have given.

Larry

If it truely is as you seem to be alluding to.... Then that would not be smoke and mirrors. It would be downright unlawful. Someone could be in a LOT of trouble.
I highly doubt that this is the case.

Huntindog wrote:
OK. I used springs as an example.(they seem to be the most common reason) It could be any of the items I mentioned that was the limiting factor. Perhaps they bolted better brakes on it, or spec'ed better bearings. None of these things are really smoke and mirrors. They are all perfectly acceptable ways to increase an axle rating.

Well for some reason either I'm not explaining it right or you're misunderstanding. Henschen as the basic axle manufacturer like say AIM for FORD vehicle axles, actually is the manufacturer of the basic axle that other take and add all those items such as brakes, bearings, hubs to to produce a functional axle and the basic axle for torsion axles as I understand it is a function of the axle tube diameter and the torsion rubber that is inside it at the time of actual manufacture. That is why the tag is not something that is stuck on like that Lippert tag on my axle, but something that is WELDED ON in stamped metal. This would sort of be like taking a tire and them putting a sticker on it changing the load information that is molded into the tire to something that is higher. I would call that smoke and mirror since I can't and don't see where you have explained how this could have been done with the example I have given.

Larry

LarryJM wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

JJKM wrote:
I noticed last season my trailer (2010 KZ Spree 324BHSLX) has sunk a few inches as I have to pull back the fender skirts to install and tighten my wheel chocks. Also, the tops of the tires are about 1" from the inside of the wheel well and both side are the same. I'm not overwieght and None of the springs are broken, but the springs do look to be flattened out a little. I know its a 'super lite' trailer, but there are 3 leaves in each leaf spring. A quick look around my storage facility at similar length/size trailers and any trailer from a 27' up to 35' has 4 leaves in each leaf spring. Local shop has offered to put 4-leave leaf springs on but can't guarantee it will raise it up by any amount. I called KZ and they tell me that the trailer was built with Dexter 4400lb axles and 3-leave leaf springs to keep it lightweight and that installing 4-leave leaf springs may be too stiff and damage other components on the trailer. They suggested calling Dexter. When I called Dexter they asked for the s/n off axles and then they'll be able to make a recommendation. When getting the serial numbers I notice the axles are actually 3500lb Al-Ko. I've called and left a message at Al-Ko, but my question is has anyone else seen/experience this and are axles and leaf spring sets 'matched?' Would it hurt anything if I kept the 3500lb axles and went with 4-leave leaf springs? Thanks in advance.

Are you sure you actually have Al-Ko axles? I have Lippert axles, but the actual axle is made by Henschen. There should be a metal axle tag welded somewhere near the ends of the axle showing the real manufacturer of the axle. My Lippert axle tags list them as 3500 axles, however, the metal Henschen axle tag shows a cap. of 2800 so I don't know what sort of games some of these trailer manufacturers play with how they put together their axles or rate them. Henschen AFAIK Henschen also supplies or used to supply the axles for Airstream trailers. Henschen was bought out by GKN back in 2008 before I discovered where my axles were actually made so I never sorted out this number discrepancy. With that said I've now got close to 20K miles with axle loads averaging above 3400lbs per axle and so far so good.:E

I have a sneaking suspision there is a lot of smoke and mirror that goes into some of this axle stuff.

Larry

I don't know about smoke and mirrors.. But there are some factors that determine the ratings.
Bearings have a rating.
Springs have a rating.
Brakes have a rating.
Drums (5,6,or 8 lug) have a rating.
Tires have a rating.
The axle tube, both diameter and wall thickness has a rating.
Building an axle means assembly of all of these parts.. The lowest rated part determines the rating. Sometimes, as I suspect your 2800# rating was for, it is just the springs. Those can be later upgraded to say 3500# springs and viola! you now have a 3500# axle.

My TT came from the factory with 5200 axles. The springs in my case were the limiting factor.

It can be interesting to delve into just what makes up your axle unit to see what determed the rating. Sometimes more capacity is pretty easy to get.

No the tag is the actual metal tag that is welded to the axle tube as shown below so my axle rating by Lippert is HIGHER not LOWER than the lowest rated component. That is what I call smoke and mirrors!

Lippert Tag on rear axle:



Henschen metal tag on same axle:




My suspection is the Henschen rating numbers indicate a range and not a fixed number, but since they no longer existed when I discovered this issue I didn't try and follow up with their new parent company. But this is a total WAG on my part since I'll never know.

BTW the actual DOT wt sticker shows 3500 axles as well and hopefully you will believe that, but I can show that tag too if you still doubt what I'm saying. I don't make this up:p

The better question is do YOU REALLY know what the ACTUAL AXLE is rated for from that metal tag welded to the axle which I think is a requirement. Mine was very hard to find and was basically obscured with all the paint on it. I bet most axles have two tags, on from the actual manufacturer and other from the axle assembly supplier. And then of course all the components will make up the DOT rating number.

Larry

You misunderstood what I am trying to say.

It is possible that when the axle was made, it was to be mated to 2800# springs. When Lippert got ot, they installed 3500# springs and it became a 3500 axle. So long as the rest of the components are good for at least 3500# (likely) then this is perfectly acceptable.
It happens all the time.

NOPE no springs this is a DURA-FLEX or torsion axle where the capacity is internal to the axle itself. Look close at the Henschen label where it says "DURA-FLEX".

Larry

Huntindog wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

JJKM wrote:
I noticed last season my trailer (2010 KZ Spree 324BHSLX) has sunk a few inches as I have to pull back the fender skirts to install and tighten my wheel chocks. Also, the tops of the tires are about 1" from the inside of the wheel well and both side are the same. I'm not overwieght and None of the springs are broken, but the springs do look to be flattened out a little. I know its a 'super lite' trailer, but there are 3 leaves in each leaf spring. A quick look around my storage facility at similar length/size trailers and any trailer from a 27' up to 35' has 4 leaves in each leaf spring. Local shop has offered to put 4-leave leaf springs on but can't guarantee it will raise it up by any amount. I called KZ and they tell me that the trailer was built with Dexter 4400lb axles and 3-leave leaf springs to keep it lightweight and that installing 4-leave leaf springs may be too stiff and damage other components on the trailer. They suggested calling Dexter. When I called Dexter they asked for the s/n off axles and then they'll be able to make a recommendation. When getting the serial numbers I notice the axles are actually 3500lb Al-Ko. I've called and left a message at Al-Ko, but my question is has anyone else seen/experience this and are axles and leaf spring sets 'matched?' Would it hurt anything if I kept the 3500lb axles and went with 4-leave leaf springs? Thanks in advance.

Are you sure you actually have Al-Ko axles? I have Lippert axles, but the actual axle is made by Henschen. There should be a metal axle tag welded somewhere near the ends of the axle showing the real manufacturer of the axle. My Lippert axle tags list them as 3500 axles, however, the metal Henschen axle tag shows a cap. of 2800 so I don't know what sort of games some of these trailer manufacturers play with how they put together their axles or rate them. Henschen AFAIK Henschen also supplies or used to supply the axles for Airstream trailers. Henschen was bought out by GKN back in 2008 before I discovered where my axles were actually made so I never sorted out this number discrepancy. With that said I've now got close to 20K miles with axle loads averaging above 3400lbs per axle and so far so good.:E

I have a sneaking suspision there is a lot of smoke and mirror that goes into some of this axle stuff.

Larry

I don't know about smoke and mirrors.. But there are some factors that determine the ratings.
Bearings have a rating.
Springs have a rating.
Brakes have a rating.
Drums (5,6,or 8 lug) have a rating.
Tires have a rating.
The axle tube, both diameter and wall thickness has a rating.
Building an axle means assembly of all of these parts.. The lowest rated part determines the rating. Sometimes, as I suspect your 2800# rating was for, it is just the springs. Those can be later upgraded to say 3500# springs and viola! you now have a 3500# axle.

My TT came from the factory with 5200 axles. The springs in my case were the limiting factor.

It can be interesting to delve into just what makes up your axle unit to see what determed the rating. Sometimes more capacity is pretty easy to get.

No the tag is the actual metal tag that is welded to the axle tube as shown below so my axle rating by Lippert is HIGHER not LOWER than the lowest rated component. That is what I call smoke and mirrors!

Lippert Tag on rear axle:



Henschen metal tag on same axle:




My suspection is the Henschen rating numbers indicate a range and not a fixed number, but since they no longer existed when I discovered this issue I didn't try and follow up with their new parent company. But this is a total WAG on my part since I'll never know.

BTW the actual DOT wt sticker shows 3500 axles as well and hopefully you will believe that, but I can show that tag too if you still doubt what I'm saying. I don't make this up:p

The better question is do YOU REALLY know what the ACTUAL AXLE is rated for from that metal tag welded to the axle which I think is a requirement. Mine was very hard to find and was basically obscured with all the paint on it. I bet most axles have two tags, on from the actual manufacturer and other from the axle assembly supplier. And then of course all the components will make up the DOT rating number.

Larry

You misunderstood what I am trying to say.

It is possible that when the axle was made, it was to be mated to 2800# springs. When Lippert got ot, they installed 3500# springs and it became a 3500 axle. So long as the rest of the components are good for at least 3500# (likely) then this is perfectly acceptable.
It happens all the time.

LarryJM wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

JJKM wrote:
I noticed last season my trailer (2010 KZ Spree 324BHSLX) has sunk a few inches as I have to pull back the fender skirts to install and tighten my wheel chocks. Also, the tops of the tires are about 1" from the inside of the wheel well and both side are the same. I'm not overwieght and None of the springs are broken, but the springs do look to be flattened out a little. I know its a 'super lite' trailer, but there are 3 leaves in each leaf spring. A quick look around my storage facility at similar length/size trailers and any trailer from a 27' up to 35' has 4 leaves in each leaf spring. Local shop has offered to put 4-leave leaf springs on but can't guarantee it will raise it up by any amount. I called KZ and they tell me that the trailer was built with Dexter 4400lb axles and 3-leave leaf springs to keep it lightweight and that installing 4-leave leaf springs may be too stiff and damage other components on the trailer. They suggested calling Dexter. When I called Dexter they asked for the s/n off axles and then they'll be able to make a recommendation. When getting the serial numbers I notice the axles are actually 3500lb Al-Ko. I've called and left a message at Al-Ko, but my question is has anyone else seen/experience this and are axles and leaf spring sets 'matched?' Would it hurt anything if I kept the 3500lb axles and went with 4-leave leaf springs? Thanks in advance.

Are you sure you actually have Al-Ko axles? I have Lippert axles, but the actual axle is made by Henschen. There should be a metal axle tag welded somewhere near the ends of the axle showing the real manufacturer of the axle. My Lippert axle tags list them as 3500 axles, however, the metal Henschen axle tag shows a cap. of 2800 so I don't know what sort of games some of these trailer manufacturers play with how they put together their axles or rate them. Henschen AFAIK Henschen also supplies or used to supply the axles for Airstream trailers. Henschen was bought out by GKN back in 2008 before I discovered where my axles were actually made so I never sorted out this number discrepancy. With that said I've now got close to 20K miles with axle loads averaging above 3400lbs per axle and so far so good.:E

I have a sneaking suspision there is a lot of smoke and mirror that goes into some of this axle stuff.

Larry

I don't know about smoke and mirrors.. But there are some factors that determine the ratings.
Bearings have a rating.
Springs have a rating.
Brakes have a rating.
Drums (5,6,or 8 lug) have a rating.
Tires have a rating.
The axle tube, both diameter and wall thickness has a rating.
Building an axle means assembly of all of these parts.. The lowest rated part determines the rating. Sometimes, as I suspect your 2800# rating was for, it is just the springs. Those can be later upgraded to say 3500# springs and viola! you now have a 3500# axle.

My TT came from the factory with 5200 axles. The springs in my case were the limiting factor.

It can be interesting to delve into just what makes up your axle unit to see what determed the rating. Sometimes more capacity is pretty easy to get.

No the tag is the actual metal tag that is welded to the axle tube as shown below so my axle rating by Lippert is HIGHER not LOWER than the lowest rated component. That is what I call smoke and mirrors!

Lippert Tag on rear axle:



Henschen metal tag on same axle:




My suspection is the Henschen rating numbers indicate a range and not a fixed number, but since they no longer existed when I discovered this issue I didn't try and follow up with their new parent company. But this is a total WAG on my part since I'll never know.

BTW the actual DOT wt sticker shows 3500 axles as well and hopefully you will believe that, but I can show that tag too if you still doubt what I'm saying. I don't make this up:p

The better question is do YOU REALLY know what the ACTUAL AXLE is rated for from that metal tag welded to the axle which I think is a requirement. Mine was very hard to find and was basically obscured with all the paint on it. I bet most axles have two tags, on from the actual manufacturer and other from the axle assembly supplier. And then of course all the components will make up the DOT rating number.

Larry

Huntindog wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

JJKM wrote:
I noticed last season my trailer (2010 KZ Spree 324BHSLX) has sunk a few inches as I have to pull back the fender skirts to install and tighten my wheel chocks. Also, the tops of the tires are about 1" from the inside of the wheel well and both side are the same. I'm not overwieght and None of the springs are broken, but the springs do look to be flattened out a little. I know its a 'super lite' trailer, but there are 3 leaves in each leaf spring. A quick look around my storage facility at similar length/size trailers and any trailer from a 27' up to 35' has 4 leaves in each leaf spring. Local shop has offered to put 4-leave leaf springs on but can't guarantee it will raise it up by any amount. I called KZ and they tell me that the trailer was built with Dexter 4400lb axles and 3-leave leaf springs to keep it lightweight and that installing 4-leave leaf springs may be too stiff and damage other components on the trailer. They suggested calling Dexter. When I called Dexter they asked for the s/n off axles and then they'll be able to make a recommendation. When getting the serial numbers I notice the axles are actually 3500lb Al-Ko. I've called and left a message at Al-Ko, but my question is has anyone else seen/experience this and are axles and leaf spring sets 'matched?' Would it hurt anything if I kept the 3500lb axles and went with 4-leave leaf springs? Thanks in advance.

Are you sure you actually have Al-Ko axles? I have Lippert axles, but the actual axle is made by Henschen. There should be a metal axle tag welded somewhere near the ends of the axle showing the real manufacturer of the axle. My Lippert axle tags list them as 3500 axles, however, the metal Henschen axle tag shows a cap. of 2800 so I don't know what sort of games some of these trailer manufacturers play with how they put together their axles or rate them. Henschen AFAIK Henschen also supplies or used to supply the axles for Airstream trailers. Henschen was bought out by GKN back in 2008 before I discovered where my axles were actually made so I never sorted out this number discrepancy. With that said I've now got close to 20K miles with axle loads averaging above 3400lbs per axle and so far so good.:E

I have a sneaking suspision there is a lot of smoke and mirror that goes into some of this axle stuff.

Larry

I don't know about smoke and mirrors.. But there are some factors that determine the ratings.
Bearings have a rating.
Springs have a rating.
Brakes have a rating.
Drums (5,6,or 8 lug) have a rating.
Tires have a rating.
The axle tube, both diameter and wall thickness has a rating.
Building an axle means assembly of all of these parts.. The lowest rated part determines the rating. Sometimes, as I suspect your 2800# rating was for, it is just the springs. Those can be later upgraded to say 3500# springs and viola! you now have a 3500# axle.

My TT came from the factory with 5200 axles. The springs in my case were the limiting factor.

It can be interesting to delve into just what makes up your axle unit to see what determed the rating. Sometimes more capacity is pretty easy to get.

LarryJM wrote:

JJKM wrote:
I noticed last season my trailer (2010 KZ Spree 324BHSLX) has sunk a few inches as I have to pull back the fender skirts to install and tighten my wheel chocks. Also, the tops of the tires are about 1" from the inside of the wheel well and both side are the same. I'm not overwieght and None of the springs are broken, but the springs do look to be flattened out a little. I know its a 'super lite' trailer, but there are 3 leaves in each leaf spring. A quick look around my storage facility at similar length/size trailers and any trailer from a 27' up to 35' has 4 leaves in each leaf spring. Local shop has offered to put 4-leave leaf springs on but can't guarantee it will raise it up by any amount. I called KZ and they tell me that the trailer was built with Dexter 4400lb axles and 3-leave leaf springs to keep it lightweight and that installing 4-leave leaf springs may be too stiff and damage other components on the trailer. They suggested calling Dexter. When I called Dexter they asked for the s/n off axles and then they'll be able to make a recommendation. When getting the serial numbers I notice the axles are actually 3500lb Al-Ko. I've called and left a message at Al-Ko, but my question is has anyone else seen/experience this and are axles and leaf spring sets 'matched?' Would it hurt anything if I kept the 3500lb axles and went with 4-leave leaf springs? Thanks in advance.

Are you sure you actually have Al-Ko axles? I have Lippert axles, but the actual axle is made by Henschen. There should be a metal axle tag welded somewhere near the ends of the axle showing the real manufacturer of the axle. My Lippert axle tags list them as 3500 axles, however, the metal Henschen axle tag shows a cap. of 2800 so I don't know what sort of games some of these trailer manufacturers play with how they put together their axles or rate them. Henschen AFAIK Henschen also supplies or used to supply the axles for Airstream trailers. Henschen was bought out by GKN back in 2008 before I discovered where my axles were actually made so I never sorted out this number discrepancy. With that said I've now got close to 20K miles with axle loads averaging above 3400lbs per axle and so far so good.:E

I have a sneaking suspision there is a lot of smoke and mirror that goes into some of this axle stuff.

Larry

JJKM wrote:
I noticed last season my trailer (2010 KZ Spree 324BHSLX) has sunk a few inches as I have to pull back the fender skirts to install and tighten my wheel chocks. Also, the tops of the tires are about 1" from the inside of the wheel well and both side are the same. I'm not overwieght and None of the springs are broken, but the springs do look to be flattened out a little. I know its a 'super lite' trailer, but there are 3 leaves in each leaf spring. A quick look around my storage facility at similar length/size trailers and any trailer from a 27' up to 35' has 4 leaves in each leaf spring. Local shop has offered to put 4-leave leaf springs on but can't guarantee it will raise it up by any amount. I called KZ and they tell me that the trailer was built with Dexter 4400lb axles and 3-leave leaf springs to keep it lightweight and that installing 4-leave leaf springs may be too stiff and damage other components on the trailer. They suggested calling Dexter. When I called Dexter they asked for the s/n off axles and then they'll be able to make a recommendation. When getting the serial numbers I notice the axles are actually 3500lb Al-Ko. I've called and left a message at Al-Ko, but my question is has anyone else seen/experience this and are axles and leaf spring sets 'matched?' Would it hurt anything if I kept the 3500lb axles and went with 4-leave leaf springs? Thanks in advance.