Forum Discussion

trailernovice's avatar
trailernovice
Explorer
Jan 07, 2018

poor frame design on travel trailer

On our Crossroads Z1 252BH (year 2016), the a-frame/coupler is mounted underneath the main frame rails of the trailer, rather than butted up to the main frame rails...this configuration results in the coupler sitting about 8 inches lower than it would had the a-frame continued at the same level as the main rails...

What this causes is that the rig bottoms out on even mild bumps and inclines...the w/d bars scrape, the chains hit the roadway (causing the breakaway cable intertwined with the safety chain to scrape), and the umbilical scrapes...so far I've had to replace the umbilical and the breakaway once, and they both again need replacement...at some point I'll need to replace the w/d bars...

This issue never crossed my mind when I selected this unit...should've realized the issue before purchase...

Want to take a long road trip to the West this summer, but may actually not go unless I trade this unit...went to Big Bend last summer and even that amount of 'up the hill/down the hill' had everything bottoming out a lot.

Just passing this on for what it's worth
  • trailernovice's avatar
    trailernovice
    Explorer
    Jan 08, 2018
    The lower picture posted by Ralph Cramden is the exact unit we have....picture how low to the ground the thing rides, with w/d bars, on a 1500-series truck...it's low as it sits in the picture, and the front end looks slightly jacked up to me...picture it hooked up to a truck...having the trailer level means less than 6 inches of clearance between the w/d bars and the road.

    I'll give some thought to the 'raise the hitch' idea...don't really want to travel nose-high, but would be better than scraping everything

    I'm not looking for solutions...best solution would be to trade...just pointing this out as something folks looking to buy should be aware of

    BTW...thanks for your efforts, Ralph!
  • rbpru's avatar
    rbpru
    Explorer II
    Jan 08, 2018
    Like most things in the RV world, you will be hard put to find the floor plan you like in anything but a Lippert frame. They do most of the industry fabrication.

    As for the OPs issue, short of a re-weld I would first raise the hitch ball. I know "nose high" is not ideal but a 4 to 6 inch raise might solve the problem.

    I doubt that anyone would be looking to that. Thanks for the heads up.
  • SidecarFlip's avatar
    SidecarFlip
    Explorer III
    Jan 08, 2018
    Couple things.. I to am a AWS certified welder (TIG-MIG-SMAW and gas and Lippert builds sub standard frames today, I've seen more than one.

    At some point, Lippert went from SMAW to MIG, don't know when, but the skill level and competence level also went south. When you have welders that one day were working at the local fast food place and the next day welding frames, it's hard to expect any consistency in welds even though a MIG (glue gun) eliminates most of the weld skill factor. However, the welder still needs to lay a bead and fuse the materials together. I've seen Lippert frames where the welds are missing entirely, or cold welded or just a tiny amount of applied weld.

    You get what you pay for and Lippert is on the low end of the pay scale (just above a burger joint I would assume). I'd work there but I really don't believe they would pay me the prevailing wage for a skilled and certified welder.

    The last place any buyer looks at is the frame... until it fails. If I was buying a unit with a frame, I'd dang sure be under it examining it propr to a purchase, but that is me an I know what to look at. Would only take maybe 30 seconds max.
  • Ralph_Cramden's avatar
    Ralph_Cramden
    Explorer II
    Jan 08, 2018
    trailernovice wrote:
    The picture Old Biscuit posted is exactly the design of our TT, and illustrates the issue...imagine the A-frame in that picture hadn't failed & creased, and instead was straight...visualize how low the w/d bars, safety chains, and umbilical cable would be to the ground...And, the mud flaps on the truck in the image leads me to believe it's probably a heavy-duty series (maybe a dually) that would sit higher and have a heavier suspension than our rig...I'm over 500 at the hitch, dry with no load in bed, on a 1500-series truck...w/d bars have six inches or less of clearance from the roadday

    the least little bump, dip or incline and everything at the hitch point bottoms out and scrapes

    Probably won't trade truck or trailer just now...I'm pointing this out for the benefit of others...something to look at when considering a particular TT



    They evidently changed something along the way.

    The top picture is a 2018, the bottom a 2016. Does you no good however as that falls under the we can change anything we want at anytime fine print they plaster everywhere. It probably boils down to what frames do they have sitting around out in the yard on the day they run the floorplan.



  • trailernovice's avatar
    trailernovice
    Explorer
    Jan 08, 2018
    The picture Old Biscuit posted is exactly the design of our TT, and illustrates the issue...imagine the A-frame in that picture hadn't failed & creased, and instead was straight...visualize how low the w/d bars, safety chains, and umbilical cable would be to the ground...And, the mud flaps on the truck in the image leads me to believe it's probably a heavy-duty series (maybe a dually) that would sit higher and have a heavier suspension than our rig...I'm over 500 at the hitch, dry with no load in bed, on a 1500-series truck...w/d bars have six inches or less of clearance from the roadday

    the least little bump, dip or incline and everything at the hitch point bottoms out and scrapes

    Probably won't trade truck or trailer just now...I'm pointing this out for the benefit of others...something to look at when considering a particular TT
  • Ralph_Cramden's avatar
    Ralph_Cramden
    Explorer II
    Jan 08, 2018
    Huntindog wrote:
    mountainkowboy wrote:
    SidecarFlip wrote:
    Old-Biscuit wrote:
    With that type of A-frame/trailer frame I would be more concerned with 'failure'



    Saw that and tight away thought of Lippert components.


    Lippert builds ****, I've seen 12 year olds that can weld better than them.
    I have had 3 different TTs with 3 different frame makers. My present one is Lippert. It is by far the best.
    Very heavy duty and top notch welds. I am a welder, so I know a little about the subject.

    Having said that, I think a lot of the credit goes to the TT builder as to what they spec in a frame... As for the welds... Why is everyone buying these TTs that have bad welds?
    They are usually pretty easy to spot on a TT. Even when new.

    A good weld, generally looks good, even to the untrained eye. Bad welds, (like my first well used TT) are just the opposite. That first of mine had terrible welds. It never caused any trouble, probably because it was way heavier than needed. I guess in 1973, using very heavy metal was the solution.

    Today, like everything else, most builders buy JUST ENOUGH to barely do the job.




    You must have recieved a fluke from Lippert. From what I have seen on every Lippert frame I have owned (3), or have seen that were owned by others or at dealers and shows, the welding looks like donkey dung. I have a little experience with welding from 30+ years in commercial and Industrial construction management.

    We bought a 2013 Keystone based on seeing a friend's 2012 which was the same model. His 2012 was on a frame made by Dexter. Our 2013 had a Lippert frame as Lippert had acquired Dexters axle division. What a difference.

    What brand and model trailer has this great Lippert frame? I am seriously curious.

    An RV manufacturer specs the frame as to overall dimensions, weight of trailer, and other design considerations but Lippert does the actual design and engineering and are the ones backing the frame from a warranty perspective. Good luck with that fight if you ever need that warranty. The RV manufacturer is looking for the cheapest price and Lippert will provide. What they save on the frame is used on the cheap eye candy which helps sales (also mostly supplied by Lippert) without affecting bottom line.

    Some of the welding and more importantly reinforcement were so questionable on our 2017 Rockwood, within the first month of ownership I was adding additional reinforcement as well as fabricating water tank supports.
  • Huntindog's avatar
    Huntindog
    Explorer
    Jan 08, 2018
    mountainkowboy wrote:
    SidecarFlip wrote:
    Old-Biscuit wrote:
    With that type of A-frame/trailer frame I would be more concerned with 'failure'



    Saw that and tight away thought of Lippert components.


    Lippert builds ****, I've seen 12 year olds that can weld better than them.
    I have had 3 different TTs with 3 different frame makers. My present one is Lippert. It is by far the best.
    Very heavy duty and top notch welds. I am a welder, so I know a little about the subject.

    Having said that, I think a lot of the credit goes to the TT builder as to what they spec in a frame... As for the welds... Why is everyone buying these TTs that have bad welds?
    They are usually pretty easy to spot on a TT. Even when new.

    A good weld, generally looks good, even to the untrained eye. Bad welds, (like my first well used TT) are just the opposite. That first of mine had terrible welds. It never caused any trouble, probably because it was way heavier than needed. I guess in 1973, using very heavy metal was the solution.

    Today, like everything else, most builders buy JUST ENOUGH to barely do the job.

  • mountainkowboy's avatar
    mountainkowboy
    Explorer
    Jan 08, 2018
    SidecarFlip wrote:
    Old-Biscuit wrote:
    With that type of A-frame/trailer frame I would be more concerned with 'failure'



    Saw that and tight away thought of Lippert components.


    Lippert builds ****, I've seen 12 year olds that can weld better than them.
  • TurnThePage's avatar
    TurnThePage
    Explorer
    Jan 08, 2018
    It sounds to me like the entire trailer probably sits pretty low, exacerbated by the low-slung tongue. Maybe you should consider flipping the axles and adjusting the hitch placement.

    On edit, I looked at them. They don't look like they sit that low, except maybe the tongue. Maybe you should check into a different hitch configuration like another poster mentioned.

    I could even see air bags on the truck making a difference for those times when you are maneuvering driveways, etc.

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