Forum Discussion
165 Replies
ShinerBock wrote:
Regardless of the brand I think a truck should be able to tow its tow rating doing at least the speed limit of any US highway even up hill or it should lower its tow rating.
Would you apply this logic to commercial trucks as well? I mean, why not? They do many more miles than RV towing trucks do. I imagine we would have to start equipping commercial trucks with dual engines, or maybe even turbine drives, to be able to pull legal weights (105,000 pounds in most western states) up 7% grades which are also common out here. Or maybe they should lower truck weight limits so we can have 2-3x the trucks on the road, just so some cars aren't momentarily inconvenienced.jus2shy wrote:
Ok, let's stick with the Ford brand. So for the 2009 to 2010 5.4 equipped trucks that had the 11000 pound tow rating, should they had been derated? I owned one. I can tell you those trucks would had struggled more than the ecodiesel in the same pull.
Yes, those trucks should have been derated and I have even stated the same back then. Although I don't know why you would bring that up unless you are trying to make this a brand issue by deflecting the current topic. As I said before, this as nothing to do with a brand. I am loyal to myself and my expectations, not to a brand that doesn't give tow shnits about me. Regardless of the brand I think a truck should be able to tow its tow rating doing at least the speed limit of any US highway even up hill or it should lower its tow rating. I also think a truck's payload and tow rating should be on every window sticker.jus2shy wrote:
Should Chevy have to derate because their truck keeps shifting between gears and doesn't hold 65mph up that same hill with a similar load?
Yes, it should lower its tow rating if it can't handle the load and has to drop down to 45 mph.jus2shy wrote:
RAM has always said that if someone wants more tow performance, they would buy a 2500, different marketing strategy from Ford.
It is not about of wanting more performance. It is about a truck being able to do what a manufacturer states it can do. I am not about making excuses or expecting less from any manufacturer. People can keep expecting less from their favorite makes, but I expect more. I expect that if a manufacturer gives their non commercial truck a tow rating, then it should be able to pull that tow rating doing the allowed trailering speed limit on any highway in the US and Canada. If not, then they need to lessen the tow rating to something it to a weight it can pull and do the speed limit on.
Yes, my expectations are high, but the F150 2.7L EB in that test was able to do it so what is the excuse for the Ram 3.0L which had a higher tow rating?jus2shy wrote:
In the end, it is a different truck meeting a different set of demands with more prioritization on fuel economy versus tow acceleration Performance.
That is fine, just lower the tow ratings to a reasonable number to where you can at least keep up with traffic when towing instead of giving it some number it can't do keeping the speed limit just so you can say it is "best in class". Again, this is not about Ford versus Chevy versus Ram. This is about my expectations and how I believe any non commercial truck should be able to do the speed limit when towing their max rated weight up any hill in the US or have its tow rating lowered to a weight it can.Tystevens wrote:
Bionic Man wrote:
On a parallel note, I really don't think most of the posters here realize just how tough I70 eastbound up to the Eisenhower tunnel is. My 2012 in my signature crests the hill between 40 - 45 MPH towing my 12,000 pound fifth wheel. My buddies 2013 F350 6.7 tows his similar trailer at the same speeds. I don't remember the last time I saw a post claiming that the current generation HD diesel trucks are under powered, but by that measure it obviously is.
Yep, I'd agree with all of this. I wonder how many trucks can hold 55 mph towing near their max up that hill? I've always looked at tow ratings as having to do more with chassis capability and longevity, not a certification of how fast I can tow up ANY mountain out there.
Well said to both of you.
Good grief, it is a tough pull. Anyone who thinks a vehicle is gonna maintain speed all the way up is just being delusional.
Holding WOT (or wide open throttle :B ) on the vehicle in question all the way up must have really caused EGT's to go high.
Then again, on the gas engined eco boost, I wonder how high the EGT's got on that one?????
I will admit total ignorance about the Ford eco boost, but it is a turbo'd engine, isn't it???????????Bionic Man wrote:
On a parallel note, I really don't think most of the posters here realize just how tough I70 eastbound up to the Eisenhower tunnel is. My 2012 in my signature crests the hill between 40 - 45 MPH towing my 12,000 pound fifth wheel. My buddies 2013 F350 6.7 tows his similar trailer at the same speeds. I don't remember the last time I saw a post claiming that the current generation HD diesel trucks are under powered, but by that measure it obviously is.
Yep, I'd agree with all of this. I wonder how many trucks can hold 55 mph towing near their max up that hill? I've always looked at tow ratings as having to do more with chassis capability and longevity, not a certification of how fast I can tow up ANY mountain out there.- Last I checked, RAM was selling as many EcoDiesels as they can build - WAY more than they anticipated.
Is it the best towing engine out there? Nope. Under these extreme conditions, is the 2.7 EB a better towing engine? Yes.
Under what I would consider normal towing conditions, with the market RAM is going after - someone who occasionally tows something other than a large RV, the Eco Diesel is a good option. If towing is your primary concern, buy something else. RAM says as much on their website.
On a parallel note, I really don't think most of the posters here realize just how tough I70 eastbound up to the Eisenhower tunnel is. My 2012 in my signature crests the hill between 40 - 45 MPH towing my 12,000 pound fifth wheel. My buddies 2013 F350 6.7 tows his similar trailer at the same speeds. I don't remember the last time I saw a post claiming that the current generation HD diesel trucks are under powered, but by that measure it obviously is. ShinerBock wrote:
If the F150 2.7L can hold the speed limit then why can't the Ram Ecodiesel?
325hp vs. 240hp.
No one expects the Ram Ecodiesel to be the quickest. It offers a balance of power/fuel efficiency/cost that is unique. If that doesn't meet your needs, move on.ShinerBock wrote:
I am not talking about a commercial trucks like Peterbilts. I also don't care about the SAE certification either. In my opinion, the 30 mph requirement is too low. Also, the SAE J2807 is not law and the manufacturers do not have to abide by them. They just use them as a standard of a maximum rating a truck can be rated for.
However, a manufacturer can still rate it lower then that maximum. Case in point is that Ford 2.7L Ecoboost. It will out perform that Ecodiesel in every way yet Ford gave it a lower tow rating then what Ram gave the Ecodiesel. Why? Maybe because Ford does not consider not being able to at least do the speed limit towing. Maybe their standards for towing is a bit higher. What ever the case maybe, it still stands that the F150 2.7L Ecoboost that Ford gave a lower tow rating to will easily hold the rated speed limit while the 1500 3.0L Ecodiesel that Ram gave a higher tow rating to is barely able to hold 10 mpg of the speed limit. If the F150 2.7L can hold the speed limit then why can't the Ram Ecodiesel?
Regardless of some SAE standard or not, it is still unacceptable to me and is a failure in my opinion. If my 2014 Ram 2500 CTD was only able to do 30 mph going up that hill towing 80% of it's rated weight, I would be sending it back to Ram asking them WTF. Unlike some, I don't make excuses for a brand like fanboys do. I also do not change or lower my expectations just so that a favorite brand fits that criteria. I have my reasonable expectations and if a truck manufacturer can't meet them then I will find one that will. In this case, the F150 2.7L met my expectations by being able to tow the rating it was given while maintaining the speed limit. The Ram Ecodiesel on the other hand.... didn't.
Ok, let's stick with the Ford brand. So for the 2009 to 2010 5.4 equipped trucks that had the 11000 pound tow rating, should they had been derated? I owned one. I can tell you those trucks would had struggled more than the ecodiesel in the same pull. The ecoboost is a very recent motor and I am a proponent for boosted engines when towing at altitude. So if you don't make excuses, what was ford's excuse? Should Chevy have to derate because their truck keeps shifting between gears and doesn't hold 65mph up that same hill with a similar load? However on low altitudes, it will match the 2.7. Ford has a marketing edge in tow aceleration performance with the ecoboost line no doubt. But then I am not a fanboy, I just recognize what the vehicle was designed to achieve And it does just what it should. RAM has always said that if someone wants more tow performance, they would buy a 2500, different marketing strategy from Ford.
In the end, it is a different truck meeting a different set of demands with more prioritization on fuel economy versus tow acceleration Performance.- I think some have lost sight of the fact that this small displacement diesel was initially engineered to propel a Cadillac. With the truck quickly replacing the "soccer mom van" of yesterday as a daily driver, fiat/chrysler recognized the market & has jumped in front of the trend with the marriage of this fuel efficient engine in the most popular vehicle class in the country. Is it the perfect tow vehicle? Not by a long shot, but sales figures point to the fact it is an overwhelming success in the the market area for which it was intended. Is it capable of successfully towing small & intermediate sized TT's? Absolutely & more economically the any other truck being produced today. On the brand specific forums you'll find numerous accounts of owners doing just that! For those consistently dragging uber heavy loads up steep inclines, there's fortunately more appropriate choices on the market.
In the FWIW category, tests performed by Green Diesel Engineering found that inability to maintain a consistent speed under extreme conditions is NOT due to insufficient power. Not that it changes the end results of this test, but it seems mama chrysler has cheaped out on the cooling systems of the Ecodiesel with a less than stellar sized radiator. When approaching high temps the engine enters a protection mode by defueling with obvious results. In normal operating conditions that 99% of us experience, the torque of these engines is there, it's real & it's capable! - I would have loved to see this "test" done with 90 to 100 degree ambient air temps like I tow in all the time on my vacation.
I was kinda shocked to see the EOT start heading to the moon on another test with snow on the ground. :E bradyk wrote:
So how do the europeans work out with their trailers and rv's. I see in magazines and even here occasionally compact pickups pulling fifth wheels and small c class units that look like small pickups underneath. Do they not care how fast they get there and how much weight they pull or just different laws. Just asking as I have no idea.
Both. I have never towed anywhere but this country but it's my understanding from other forums that they tow MUCH slower and their laws are much stricture on speed.
Also, depending on the county, if it's flat, it does not take much HP to tow a trailer down the road at 45 to 50 MPH. Somewhere around 100 HP or so depending.
Now when you get into the mountains like we have in some parts of the US the HP curve almost goes straight up.
BTW I was at 28 MPH up that same mountain with my 200 HP 425 FT/LB TD engine grossing around 15K with a TT on the back.
