Synthetic oil

Double post

AH64ID wrote:

ksss wrote:



The event leading into the HG being taken out was brought back to an event a month prior when an employee got the truck hot until it went into limp mode, shut it off, and cooked it.

I was really surprised when I was told of the wear on the valve train.

But what caused it to get so hot?? It is VERY difficult to get a modern vehicle to overheat.

In addition what it to say that the elevated temp, and probably load, didn't cause the oil to overheat and do damage? It takes a lot of heat to warp a head.

climbing steep grades pulling a 20K excavator at 6.5K feet in a plowed field. It was operator error.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Most of the newer cars are now running roller cams, and 4 valves per cylinder. Flat tappet cams are old school.

Nowadays, you can't switch out or modify cams due to pollution control requirements, either by state or by National DOT standards. So Crane cams is a non issue, except on a closed course competition car.

:R

You're missing the point. Someone said it's ok to break in an engine with synthetic oil.

Flat tappet valve train load is some of the highest PSI in an engine. ALL of these cam makers say DO NOT USE SYNESTHETIC OIL IN YOUR ENGINE while breaking it in.

EVERY professional engine builder I know does not recommend breaking in an engine with synesthetic oil.

BTW, not that it makes any difference in this discussion but you are COMPLETELY WRONG about not being able to change cams on a pollution control vehicle. (See the Carb #?)

I buy new cars... VW diesels to be exact. Every one of them comes with full synthetic motor oil in them from the factory. I used to work for Brush Research Manufacturing here in So California, makers of the Flex Hone Glaze Breaker and Glaze Breaker Diesel Flex Hones. I think Bob Fowlie still owns it.

German car manufacturers laser hone the bores on every cylinder, thereby knocking off and melting the peaks and creating the plateau flat tops that support proper ring seating and break in, leaving worm like valleys for the motor oil to pool and puddle in to provide micro lubrication to the piston and piston walls.

Rebuilt engines are for the next person that buys my cars off of me.

How to lazer hone an bore.

VW TDI engine with pics of photon honed bore on page 6

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

srt20 wrote:

RambleOnNW wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

gmcsmoke wrote:
I'd be curious to know how many are getting UOA to prove dino can't make it 5,000 miles and to know when it's time to change the synthetic.

My guess? ZERO. Every time I ask what the UOA said of the people that "know" their oil is bad I never get a response or they say they don't know or don't care. But they sure "know" that their oil is used up. :R

In fact, I would venture to guess from some of the responses in this thread a lot of people on here never had a UOA done or don't even know what a UOA even means.

I've learned one thing; there is a hellofa lot of good oil being thrown away. That keeps a slow economy going good I guess. :B

Well, let's see what your conventional oil UOAs show.

Here's my last synthetic UOA, which is on a 14,000 lb vehicle. Insolubles were up to 0.3% which is higher than what I see on our cars at change time, of 0.2%. Still plenty of life in the oil but this was a once a year change. There were about 20 mountain pass crossings from 1500 to 6000 feet in this interval.

Also note that the Ford V10 requires at least a semi-synthetic 5W-20 oil, conventional oil is not allowed.

Probably could have went another 4k on that oil. In a motorhome...

...

You're informed because you go through the expense of UOA but you then don't follow their advice. :h

...

Not clear what advice you are referring to...this was the first and only UOA on this engine and Blackstone did not offer any oil-change mileage advice (because I did not check the box that requests such advice).

1 year oil change interval at 4k on Mobil 1 is long enough for me. Currently have Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5W-20 in for 13 months and have not yet reached 4K miles, so will stay for some time longer.

For more info on wear metals vs anti-wear additives, look here.

AH64ID wrote:
snip....

I even had to add additional ZDDP to my oil for cam break-in.

Cummins still uses flat tappet cams in 2014, but they do come OEM with synthetic... but diesel oil has a LOT more ZDDP than gas oil, even the CJ4 stuff.

All of the cam break in grease I've ever used has MolyB, ZDDP and
some even graphite filled

There are discussions of Molyb being a metal ash and abrasive. Correct
but out of context...Molybdenum Disulfide in lubrication has to of
the right particulate size to work properly. El Cheapo cam lube uses
too large a particulate size and it is abrasive.

El Cheapo, as Molybdenum Disulfide is one of the most expensive
components for any lube. Whether liquid or grease. I now use Tungsten
Disulfide, but may change back The natural plating attributes of
Tungsten isn't as high as Molybdenum (dry starts)

The whole point of that is to SLOW down the wearing of mating parts
until it has had a chance to 'lap' the mating surfaces together. Why
they add super lube additives like Molyb

Flat tappets are 'rotated' by the cam lobe to keep the wear evenly
spread over the surface.

The higher ZDDP is because SMOG components dictated lower ZDDP in the
engine oil. So as to NOT poison the CATs so quickly

Before rollers on the CAM, the higher ratio rockers and higher spring
rates had the push rod angle increase ever so slightly...that added
loading to the lifters to its bores. Not the case these days, nor
is changing out a CAM much of an option

Agree and add that it was a synthetic fill, so much higher temp spec oil
A lower spec oil would have been toast sooner...

Once oil 'cooks' (over temps) much of it cokes and that is VERY abrasive

How long did that employee continue to drive it until the computer
decided to protect itself by going into limp mode. That doesn't happen
in an instant...

AH64ID wrote:

ksss wrote:



The event leading into the HG being taken out was brought back to an event a month prior when an employee got the truck hot until it went into limp mode, shut it off, and cooked it.

I was really surprised when I was told of the wear on the valve train.

But what caused it to get so hot?? It is VERY difficult to get a modern vehicle to overheat.

In addition what it to say that the elevated temp, and probably load, didn't cause the oil to overheat and do damage? It takes a lot of heat to warp a head.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Most of the newer cars are now running roller cams, and 4 valves per cylinder. Flat tappet cams are old school.

Nowadays, you can't switch out or modify cams due to pollution control requirements, either by state or by National DOT standards. So Crane cams is a non issue, except on a closed course competition car.

:R

You're missing the point. Someone said it's ok to break in an engine with synthetic oil.

Flat tappet valve train load is some of the highest PSI in an engine. ALL of these cam makers say DO NOT USE SYNESTHETIC OIL IN YOUR ENGINE while breaking it in.

EVERY professional engine builder I know does not recommend breaking in an engine with synesthetic oil.

BTW, not that it makes any difference in this discussion but you are COMPLETELY WRONG about not being able to change cams on a pollution control vehicle. (See the Carb #?)

I even had to add additional ZDDP to my oil for cam break-in.

Cummins still uses flat tappet cams in 2014, but they do come OEM with synthetic... but diesel oil has a LOT more ZDDP than gas oil, even the CJ4 stuff.

Most of the newer cars are now running roller cams, and 4 valves per cylinder. Flat tappet cams are old school.

Nowadays, you can't switch out or modify cams due to pollution control requirements, either by state or by National DOT standards. So Crane cams is a non issue, except on a closed course competition car.

:R

You're missing the point. Someone said it's ok to break in an engine with synthetic oil.

Flat tappet valve train load is some of the highest PSI in an engine. ALL of these cam makers say DO NOT USE SYNESTHETIC OIL IN YOUR ENGINE while breaking it in.

EVERY professional engine builder I know does not recommend breaking in an engine with synesthetic oil.

BTW, not that it makes any difference in this discussion but you are COMPLETELY WRONG about not being able to change cams on a pollution control vehicle. (See the Carb #?)

gmcsmoke wrote:

RambleOnNW wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

gmcsmoke wrote:
I'd be curious to know how many are getting UOA to prove dino can't make it 5,000 miles and to know when it's time to change the synthetic.

My guess? ZERO. Every time I ask what the UOA said of the people that "know" their oil is bad I never get a response or they say they don't know or don't care. But they sure "know" that their oil is used up. :R

In fact, I would venture to guess from some of the responses in this thread a lot of people on here never had a UOA done or don't even know what a UOA even means.

I've learned one thing; there is a hellofa lot of good oil being thrown away. That keeps a slow economy going good I guess. :B

Well, let's see what your conventional oil UOAs show.

Here's my last synthetic UOA, which is on a 14,000 lb vehicle. Insolubles were up to 0.3% which is higher than what I see on our cars at change time, of 0.2%. Still plenty of life in the oil but this was a once a year change. There were about 20 mountain pass crossings from 1500 to 6000 feet in this interval.

Also note that the Ford V10 requires at least a semi-synthetic 5W-20 oil, conventional oil is not allowed.

here's a conventional with 10K on the oil. Just an FYI the OLM went off 1,000 miles earlier and I still had good life on the oil. This is 20k GCW with 5-6,00 towing miles.

Difficult to determine anything in your engine if it is in the break-in period and aluminum is 5.5X universal averages, iron 3X, copper 26X. Here is another truck with a motor like yours and a 6,600 mile OCI:

ksss wrote:



The event leading into the HG being taken out was brought back to an event a month prior when an employee got the truck hot until it went into limp mode, shut it off, and cooked it.

I was really surprised when I was told of the wear on the valve train.

But what caused it to get so hot?? It is VERY difficult to get a modern vehicle to overheat.

In addition what it to say that the elevated temp, and probably load, didn't cause the oil to overheat and do damage? It takes a lot of heat to warp a head.