Timed vs inertia brake controllers

LOL.. I'm still running an old Tekonsha Voyager. Very satisfied with it too. I understand its shortcomings and know how to work the controller. So far, I am very happy with it.

Simple FACT of the matter is that they ALL are mechanical devices, subject to failure, subject to Murphy's law.

When I first got into towing I stayed away from Prodigy, specifically because it seemed like every other day someone was posting about their Prodigy shorting out and Tekonsha sending them replacements. I actually went with a timed Hayes unit.. believe it or not that control worked fine. I would back off the gain in slow traffic and add more aggressive gain on the highway. Moved from the timed unit to a pendulum based Primus control. It was OK but not great. New truck had a timed brake control that was miserable... so I replaced it with my current Voyager.

To me, this is the perfect controller... It works for us... never an issue with it and super easy to set slightly aggressive (no boost button, etc. etc.) The simple light on the Voyager really is a nice design. If I see the green light I'm connected, no light, no connection, turns from green to orange to red depending on the proportional control.

I would probably choose a Jordan if they still made them or I could find an affordable NOS specimen. I see no need to go with a P2 or a P3.

The Maxbrake (or brake smart?) is a nice design. I may try it out after the Voyager dies (Its over 10 years old and still kicking, I bought it off eBay used!)

Thanks!

Jeremiah

BenK wrote:
how I've noodled this before deciding on the P3...

True proportional braking using 'real time' feedback/sense...the inertia
sensor

Proportional after or above the preset gain

Proportional because the inertia sensor senses rates of change and
the harder the trailer brakes decelerate, the more the P3 will tell
the trailer brakes to brake (voltage)

Since the GM TV brake pedal switch is so nifty, it switches over with
less than 0.010" movement.

That means the brake controller will tell the trailer brakes to initiate
before the TV MC ever develops PSI. Meaning my P3 will have the trailer
brakes initiated before the integrated MC PSI sensed and after market
MC PSI sensed

Can take my P3 out of my Suburban and install it in anyother TV that
has the harness (compatible). Can't do that with any MC PSI sensed,
both after market and 'highly integrated'

Saw how the after market MC PSI sensed HOW2 video and telling to me
on their engineering fastidiousness or lack of it. To have the added
'T' and the stub line to the PSI sensor unsupported in a cantilevered
position on a high vibration application so telling...to have me wonder
what about the rest of their design/designers ??? Oh, they don't
instruct to bleed all the way down to the two corners of 'that' MC
line that was opened. Also telling on the fastidiousness of those
who say not needed and just bleed the stub line...

If my P3 goes south...nothing else is dragged south with it. Since
life time warranty, can get a new one just about anywhere and if not,
then buy another to then send the unit & new receipt for warranty coverage

There is a new thread where a guy hooked up a scope and found that
the signal to the trailer brakes is PWM...not a stretch to see that
there are lots of things that can be with that PWM signal... Yes, am
a designer and have lots of PCB design experience...

One down side is that it looks like after market, but since I keep my
vehicles forever, will be making a wooden center console and then
integrate the P3 into that.

Price is NOT a major consideration for this kind of safety system
but nice to find my P3 on sale for a fraction of the MC PSI sensed
after market units




PS...I've never installed nor driven a trailer brake controller that
used MC PSI sense...but an good in noodling how they work. Pure logic
flow or truth table diagrams in my mind married with the forensic's or
call it failure modes in my mind :)




PPS...looked at the Jordan when it first came out and the spec's seemed
wonderful and actually considered one

But, after seeing how the wire is mounted, where, etc decided that was
had a risk of getting snagged or bent. Plus a moving part, so a wear
point for both the wire length and whatever is inside the unit sensing
wire movement. Asked if there was a rate of change and the guy didn't
know what that meant...cinched it for me back then




PPPS...About the proportional braking of a MC PSI sensed and then
note to them that it is only proportional to the MC PSI, not the rate of change of the TV/Trailer

Or that an inertia sensed does that and dynamically too boot all the
while never developing any MC PSI

Or that when my TV's brakes are told to initiate...gets up to temp to
then 'haul @ss' down in speed...the inertia sensed will see that and
if not up to full voltage...will up the voltage to match

Often will have to let up on the TV's brake pedal to reduce MC PSI
and the inertia sensor will continue to apply high voltage to the trailer
brakes...a MC Sensed will reduce trailer braking because the MC PSI
has been reduced or removed all together...my P3 will continue to brake
the trailer in that condition

:R

Yawn..

OK, BenK as usual BLASTS EVERYTHING that is BETTER than his P3 with half truths and plain baloney.

The Jordan Ultima uses a HARMLESS aircraft grade stainless steel cable which connects to a SPRING LOADED ball mount. The ball mount sits in a cradle which is mounted to the top of your brake pedal.

If for ANY REASON the cable ever jammed the spring loaded ball mount simply gives and allows for full brake pedal movement.

It is pure genus in simplicity in how it works.

The Jordan Ultima is unbelievably simple to operate.

There is no "boost" settings to have to fuss with.

There is no special mounting directions and can be mounted upside down if you wanted to.

Once you have the cradle mount installed, set the cable length there is nothing else to do except to set the max output current which is ONE KNOB.

Operation is dead simple, once the max current has been set you simply DRIVE. If you find the brakes are a bit to aggressive you simply back off the current until you get the action you want. Not enough brake and simply turn it up until you are satisfied.

Basically myself once I set it I never had to touch the setting again until I changed trailers (TT to flatbed trailer).

BenK and many others took issue with the Jordan Ultima because you can't have a good working controller that is THAT simple to use.

You just can't reason with some people...

The P3 has several "vulnerabilities", one is it RELIES one the BRAKE LIGHT to signal operation. The brake light signal in most vehicles does not come directly from the brake pedal switch.

Instead comes from the Body module or computer which MONITORS the brake switch. The circuit often used to trigger the brake controller is the third brake light. This is a fuses circuit and folks HAVE had the third brake light fuse BLOW.

To me that is a HAZARD waiting to happen since the entire operation of the P3 REQUIRES getting the brake light signal and you can have the brake light fuse blow and NEVER know it.

Next vulnerability is off axis operation of the P3, ideally the controller needs to be SQUARE with the front direction of said vehicle. The further off axis the larger chance of ERRORS happening.

So what happens during a slide event? I personally did not want to take that chance but I don't think the controller will be able to function correctly under that condition.

Next vulnerability, the P3 uses a lot of computer calculations to COVER UP and HIDE any ERRORS. Yep, that is what the BOOST settings are all about... So, if you are attempting to park you have to remember to change the boost to a different setting from what you would use out on the highway and any other changes in your driving speed or habits and you may find yourself making adjustments .

As far as IBC controllers, while I am not a big fan of ahving to make a trip to a vehicle dealer to get it fixed I must say that they work great in fact just as good as my Jordan Ultima (which DOES work better than any inertia controller). The manufacturers of vehicles that include IBCs over the years seem to have ironed out the initial problems and I have not seen any complaints posted for the last 5 yrs or better.

I will also toss in a new comer to brake controllers that BenK can rip on.. It is called Direclink and it interfaces to your vehicle via the OBD2 connector of your vehicle. It "reads" the data on the diagnostics port and uses that to apply the trailer brakes.

It "satisfies BenKs "demands" for easy connection, not connection to the brake pedal, nor to the MC.. Rip away BenK..

DIRECLINK CLICKY LINK

Fair weather guy here, so have not towed heavy in icy conditions

Noodling it...says the inertia sensor will know when I've told it to brake, but
no deceleration. So the boost preset will the basis and no higher, again because
the inertia sensor does NOT sense any rate of change or enough to warrant more
trailer braking

That would be adjustable via the boost number reset for slippery
conditions...and I'd reset it to zero for those conditions

I do or used to snow ski till the orthopedist said no more (other sports stuff
too) and am well accustomed to using chains. If I ever do tow in those conditions,
the trailer *WILL* have chains and leading the trailer brakes a good thing then too

The P3 gets it's command to turn on and brake from the TV's brake pedal switch.
If you have a retarder (tell a bit about that), that depends on how you switch
or initiate it.

If the TV brake pedal switch, the P3 will also initiate, but if something other
than the pedal switch, then the P3 will NOT until the pedal switch is initiated

I also have a C10 Silverado that I tow a utility trailer or rental at times.
That is when I've had the P3 in it

thanks for the info BenK -

I agree "price" is way down the list of "concerns" when it comes to brakes.

Do you ever tow on icy roads? I am wondering how the P3 controller causing the trailer brakes to "lead" the tow vehicle functions in slippery conditions? Or is this feature adjustable?

- how does the unit modulate the trailer on long downgrades where you need or want to ride the brakes at a low application? When I engage my retarder brake will the inertia sensor want to add trailer brake when I don't want to, because the tow vehicle retarder is slowing the unit?

- moving from one vehicle to another is not a feature I need.

- stand alone not connected to the TV brake hydraulics is good in case of failure.

how I've noodled this before deciding on the P3...

True proportional braking using 'real time' feedback/sense...the inertia
sensor

Proportional after or above the preset gain

Proportional because the inertia sensor senses rates of change and
the harder the trailer brakes decelerate, the more the P3 will tell
the trailer brakes to brake (voltage)

Since the GM TV brake pedal switch is so nifty, it switches over with
less than 0.010" movement.

That means the brake controller will tell the trailer brakes to initiate
before the TV MC ever develops PSI. Meaning my P3 will have the trailer
brakes initiated before the integrated MC PSI sensed and after market
MC PSI sensed

Can take my P3 out of my Suburban and install it in anyother TV that
has the harness (compatible). Can't do that with any MC PSI sensed,
both after market and 'highly integrated'

Saw how the after market MC PSI sensed HOW2 video and telling to me
on their engineering fastidiousness or lack of it. To have the added
'T' and the stub line to the PSI sensor unsupported in a cantilevered
position on a high vibration application so telling...to have me wonder
what about the rest of their design/designers ??? Oh, they don't
instruct to bleed all the way down to the two corners of 'that' MC
line that was opened. Also telling on the fastidiousness of those
who say not needed and just bleed the stub line...

If my P3 goes south...nothing else is dragged south with it. Since
life time warranty, can get a new one just about anywhere and if not,
then buy another to then send the unit & new receipt for warranty coverage

There is a new thread where a guy hooked up a scope and found that
the signal to the trailer brakes is PWM...not a stretch to see that
there are lots of things that can be with that PWM signal... Yes, am
a designer and have lots of PCB design experience...

One down side is that it looks like after market, but since I keep my
vehicles forever, will be making a wooden center console and then
integrate the P3 into that.

Price is NOT a major consideration for this kind of safety system
but nice to find my P3 on sale for a fraction of the MC PSI sensed
after market units




PS...I've never installed nor driven a trailer brake controller that
used MC PSI sense...but an good in noodling how they work. Pure logic
flow or truth table diagrams in my mind married with the forensic's or
call it failure modes in my mind :)




PPS...looked at the Jordan when it first came out and the spec's seemed
wonderful and actually considered one

But, after seeing how the wire is mounted, where, etc decided that was
had a risk of getting snagged or bent. Plus a moving part, so a wear
point for both the wire length and whatever is inside the unit sensing
wire movement. Asked if there was a rate of change and the guy didn't
know what that meant...cinched it for me back then




PPPS...About the proportional braking of a MC PSI sensed and then
note to them that it is only proportional to the MC PSI, not the rate of change of the TV/Trailer

Or that an inertia sensed does that and dynamically too boot all the
while never developing any MC PSI

Or that when my TV's brakes are told to initiate...gets up to temp to
then 'haul @ss' down in speed...the inertia sensed will see that and
if not up to full voltage...will up the voltage to match

Often will have to let up on the TV's brake pedal to reduce MC PSI
and the inertia sensor will continue to apply high voltage to the trailer
brakes...a MC Sensed will reduce trailer braking because the MC PSI
has been reduced or removed all together...my P3 will continue to brake
the trailer in that condition

OK - thanks for the information posted so far.

Here is what I've figgered out:

- I don't want to keep using a timed controller.

- inertia controllers come in fancier "proportional" versions and are electronic.

- "master cylinder sensing" hydraulic pressure sensing is what the nice Ford OEM built in controllers are, and are available aftermarket from people like "Max Brake". They are similar in principle to the brake controller I helped my dad install on our 1964 Pontiac Laurentian station wagon when I was a little gaffer, learning to grab me the 7/16. That car towed a single axle aluminum skin / nice marine plywood interior single axle travel trailer (don't remember the brand name) all over the Canadian Rockies and the Okanagon with a 283 V8 and 2 speed automatic, in summer. Yes he used WD hitch but not sway control that was for sissies. Firestone Wide Oval bias tires. Premium gas only - sorry I digress - back to brakes: Except now the interface from hydraulic to electric signal is under the hood - no hydraulic brake line through the firewall like the Pontiac.

- so I need to decide do I want master cylinder sensing?

- or rely on inertia & electronics only... ?

More input from experienced users welcome...

BenK wrote:
To the OP...'best' is way subjective...
.......

That's why I didn't ask what was "best" - besides being subjective that question generally starts a round of tiresome rv.net mud slinging...

Thanks for the information - sounds like you have made nice upgrades to your rig.

06Fargo wrote:
Our TV has a Reese sumthin sumthin timed brake controller, for use on up to 4 axle trailers.

Are we destined to crash and burn due to not having the other style?

Probably not.
However, the very best that can be said about a time-based brake controller is that it is marginally better than nothing.

To the OP...'best' is way subjective...

I think my P3 is the best over all of them, you decide for yourself

Most folks who complain about bad or poor trailer brake performance
has a trailer braking system poorly adjusted to even poor components

Trailer harness wiring is famous for being poor to bad, undersized
gauge, etc

Read up on the TV MC (brake master cylinder) PSI sensed (sensed is
the eyes, ears, touch, etc of the trailer brake controller's input)

Ditto inertia sensed

Several reasons I love my P3...

• #1 is that I'll not open up and modify my TV's braking system for this
• #2I like the lead my P3 provides over MC sensed (lead as in starts the trailer braking before my TV braking
• #3 dislike highly integrated anything...all of them (fax/copier/printer/etc) have had one function malfunction so have to toss the whole thing
• #4 Highly integrated will use the other function 'integrated'...wonderful...till something goes south...then they all malfunction and a nightmare to 'try' to fix
• #5 Did I mention I'll not touch my TV's braking hydraulics for anything?

Now the biggie of my P3 vs MC sensed...unless that MC sensed system
also has a TV brake pedal sense

My vehicles have my personal braking tweaks and performance level
friction materials. My Sub has out stopped a BMW 5 series.

So I MUST have the trailer lead during braking

Mine setup does stop as 'one', there is no banging, etc. Smoooooth is
the best way to describe how my setup stops. Even when borrowing others
and that their trailer brakes are not in good order...my TV's setup
still has the whole stop as 'one'

Since GM has a nifty brake pedal switch, it leads the TV MC PSI build
up.

Meaning that the brake controller will tell the trailer to start
braking before the TV MC develops *ANY* PSI... How hard the controller
tells the trailer to brake is dependent on how much boost is dialed in
*AND*....how fast the setup is decelerating via the inertia sensor
inside the controller...MC sensed uses the MC PSI build up and has
no correlation with the rates of deceleration...unless they too have
an inertia sensor

I can stop the whole setup without ever developing TV MC hydraulic PSI

Again, that is a must for me, as my TV develops so much braking that
if the trailer brakes comes on at the same time as the TV's...the TV
might jack knife due to too much (vs trailer) braking

OP...you should NOT consider any time based and then decide on which
is 'best' for you...

06Fargo wrote:
Has anyone changed from a timed controller to non-OEM inertia style and if yes what differences were found?

Yes, I have. And I agree with above posters that the timed controllers should be removed from the market.

The problem with the time-based controllers is that in a panic stop, you will NOT have full trailer brakes the instant you need them unless you crank the ramp up to the max.

But then if you do that, you can't stop smoothly the 99% of the time you aren't panic-braking. You have to back down the ramp to stop smoothly, which is effectively neutralizing the trailer brakes.

So you can either stop smoothly, or you can have your safety in an emergency. But in no way can you actually have both.

My ramp-time controller is in the bottom drawer of my toolbox as a backup spare. I hope to never use it again.