Update: On my RV Building Plans....

Huntindog wrote:
I thought od a couple of things that may need to be addressed.
I actually shopped for and purchased a cargo trailer for our local bird dog club about 10-12 years ago, so I am pretty famalier with the construction.
What do you plan on doing about the rear cargo door(s)?
A roll up door would be out of the question, but the dual rear swing open doors could possibly be used to an advantage.

All of the trailers I looked at had plywood or osb floors that were not sealed from the outside elements in any way. This is not a big deal in a cargo trailer as replacing a piece of plywood is cheap and easy... Not so once living quarters are built on top of the floor. So it will need to be sealed somehow.
I also have toured the Sabre TT plant and know how they are built. The frames starts out upside down, making it easy to install the tanks, wiring and seal the underside up. Then the frame is turned right side up, and the living quarters etc. is built onto the floor. The walls and roof are installed last.
Sealing the bottom of a already built unit will be a challenge. Most TT builders use a fabric called Darco. It is not 100% waterproof but is breathable. It needs to be to let any moisture that may find its way in to get out. Years ago, the indudtry tried to do 100% sealing by installing sheets of aluminum under the floor. It trapped water and condensation and resulted in a lot of rotted floors.

I have also looked at some of the dry toilet designs and see some issues there as well. I thing they may be OK so long as the human plumbing is working at it's best.
Getting sick, or other issues may have you wishing for a standard toilet really bad.

My TT has two bathrooms with 84 gallons of black capacity.. When we boondock, we often use the shovel and the great out doors in remote areas, to allow us to extend our stay. We use the toilets at night or in bad weather, or when not feeling good.

OhhWell wrote:
You guys are till pitting way too much energy into responding to this boor.

Gdetrailer wrote:
MYRVPLANS1 writes “Well, I think in a roundabout way you have validated my point. You have a stove/oven which you paid for but you use so infrequently that was it really the best of options to have installed? If it just came with your model then what else did it come with that you don’t use? If I was building a large trailer perhaps installing a stove/oven would not be such a factor, but in a small RV you have to make choices based on need and space. Eliminating the stove/oven does reduce maintenance. We could debate the amount (every bit adds up), but I see a stoves/ovens for their clean up headaches, odors, invitations to bugs, etc. Don’t see anything in my design which has less maintenance than a standard RV? I’m not exactly sure what a “standard RV” is these days, but designing a vehicle without things like slideouts, heating vents in the floor, skylights, cabinetry that collects dust, a shower door, etc. and installing things like a seamless counter top that’s easy to clean will put a little extra time in my day.”

No, I DID NOT “VALIDATE” YOUR POINT, PERIOD!

Let me make this very clear.

I DON’T MIND HAVING A INDOOR STOVE WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT GET USED.

Why?

Simply because I WANT THE FLEXIBILITY TO BE ABLE TO COOK INSIDE IN CASE THE WEATHER IS NOT SUNNY. You will find very few people that would rather not have a indoor stove, I personally know lots of RVrs which DO INDEED use their indoor stove for cooking large meals...

Even though I have not used my stove yet it doesn’t mean that I will never use it, pretty fair chance that it will get used eventually but so far I have been lucky to have nice weather to cook things on charcoal outdoors..

Indoor stoves do have some advantages, there ARE places that have many annoying flying insects.. Have you been in Vermont during Spring/Summer/Fall? I have and let me tell you they have some flying insects which are large enough to carry off your pots and pans along with your meal and or your dog..

I have been places in South Carolina which have Mosquitoes large enough to make you faint when they tap into you..

Cost?

Really, have you priced indoor stoves?

Cost is NOTHING compared to the cost of a RV..

2 burner cooktop is $125 HERE

3 burner cooktop is $150 HERE

3 burner with oven is $630 HERE

So at the least, you will “save” a whopping $125 and have to do all your cooking outdoors in fair or foul weather..

Have you ever tried that with a hungry family? How about in a lightning storm?

A Coleman outdoor propane stove costs $50, uses expensive propane cylinders, requires setup and teardown and STILL NEEDS “cleaning” like a indoor stove if you are a slob at cooking plus you get to fight with winds blowing out the flames and the winds will dramatically increase the cooking time by blowing the heat away from your pans..

Maintenance of a indoor stove, THERE IS NO MAINTENANCE needed to stoves and if you are not a slob at cooking there is no spillage or cleaning. It is no worse than cooking inside at home, the same rules at home apply while cooking in a camper. Cleanup is a snap and no worse than a home stove which does not have “sealed” burners.. If you don’t like the mess you can simply line the area under the burners with aluminum foil. After cooking you simply flip the stove top up and remove the foil..

You STILL have to clean your OUTDOOR stoves, Coleman stoves can get just as dirty as a indoor stove so your points on this are NOT VALID.

“So you read a lot of forums and you haven’t seen ANY info huh? Hold on to your seat. (No pun intended) I just saw this one last night: http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/composting-toilet
and... http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/install-composting-toilet Welcome to the other side :–)”

Umm.. ONE ” GREENIE” “website” does not make MANY websites or opinions “for” using or converting to a composting toilet.. ONE website does not mean EVERYONE agrees or WANTS a so called green toilet.

I don't buy into the GREEN agenda, at the end of the day the green thing holds no water..

Perhaps you can point out a GENUINE REAL LIFE ACTUAL MAINSTREAM RV MANUFACTURER And THE MODEL OF THE RV WHICH HAS A COMPOSTING TOILET FROM FACTORY.

I laugh at anyone who states “EVERY HOME SHOULD HAVE A COMPOSTING TOILET”, that statement sounds a lot like a third grade kid attempting to write a English paper.. My daughter when she was in third grade could write better, more coherent sentences..

You have bought into the notion that composting is “better”.. You DO realize the green movement is all about LESS “convenience” and MORE user work. You pay more, get less, you work more and get less for that work..

A composting toilet is a step above a “privy” hole (outhouse).. I don’t have a outhouse at my home and have no plans on building and using one..

You mention LESS “cost”, space, maintenance to justify the no stove thing, well how about the cost, space, maintenance of a RV toilet vs composting toilet?

RV toilets can be had as low as $158 HERE
Small 20 gallon black tank can be had for as little as $125..

So RV setup you would have $283 into..

Composting toilets are considerably more expensive and take up more room and weighs about 100 lbs empty, takes up as much as 3ft by 3ft area and requires 4ft open area for the “drawer” IN FRONT OF THE TOILET.. You don’t have enough open area allotted for the drawer.. Not sure how you plan to remove the drawer for emptying..

$1785 for a “compact” type HERE which only has enough capacity for ONE RESIDENT 3-4 WEEKEND USE (8 day or about 1 week).

$1645 for a “regular” type HERE 2-3 resident 5-7 WEEKEND capacity (14 day or 2 weeks)

Contrary to what that green website states composting toilets DO SMELL, that is one of the reasons they have a 4” VENT pipe/stack.

Even with a composting toilet you STILL NEED a “drain” system which INCLUDES some sort of overflow “tank”.. Per the manufacturer info I found and I quote.. “Evaporating capacity on the Excel NE is variable, so the 1" drain at the rear should be connected to an approved drain pit, container, or other facility.” IN A NUTSHELL YOU STILL NEED A BLACK TANK TO HANDLE EXCESS BLACK WATER WASTE.

Human and animal waste SMELLS EVEN WHEN FULLY COMPOSTED.. I have over the years had the “pleasure” of dealing with Cow manure, Horse manure, rabbit manure, chicken manure, mushroom manure all fully composted.. THEY ALL SMELL..

Very few people are going to really want to remove the manure tray indoors from a composing toilet then have to carry the contents outside..

Less maintenance? Well according to one of the composting toilet sellers there ARE specific MAINTENANCE procedures which NEED to be followed..

PER HERE

You need to CONTINUALLY add Peat moss/wood shaving “mix” EACH TIME you turn the drum. Note, there ARE people who are ALLERGIC to wood dust/shavings, I am very allergic to wood dust and shavings if I breathe the dust..

Drum needs turned 4-6 times weekly

You NEED to add 1/2 gallon water if you are not using it every few days.

You may need to “rake” the compost in the drawer.

Does not “compost” in temperatures of 55 F or below and the unit basically is nothing more than a EXPENSIVE “holding tank”..

That WILL be a turn off for those die hard WINTER WEATHER CAMPERS on below freezing temps.

And I suspect you WILL have issues with your “unfinished” compost sifting and “falling out” into the tray while you are towing your trailer from point a to point b.. Trailers get REAL bouncy while being towed and anything placed BEHIND the axles of a trailer will have the bumps multiplied multiple times larger.. (think school bus where the “fun” seat was the LAST back seat, you got tossed into the air when big bumps were driven over)

Seems to me you now have become a slave to the toilet for maintenance..

My RV toilet maintenance is pretty simple, do my business, flush and forget about it until the next and repeat the cycle until I break camp.. Then I partially fill the tank with water, making sure the slinky is connected I pull the dump handle. Once drained I close the handle and partially fill the tank and dump again.

Once black tank is rinsed and empty I then open the grey and allow that to wash down the slinky, close valve and disconnect and store the slinky.

All told takes me 20 minutes to execute and no need to add chemicals or in the case of a composting toilet peat/wood shavings, enzymes and nor do I have to handle “compost”..

Your point for a composting toilet is NOT VALID.

There are reasons as to why no one is manufacturing trailers outfitted they way you are going.. Very few people will want it and therefore it is too costly to build a few specialty trailers..

With all that said, if YOU want to build one the way YOU want FOR YOUR OWN USAGE that is perfectly fine to me, but don’t come back here crying that you cannot find buyers for your ideas..

#1 rule in selling something is to make it APPEAL to a LARGE AUDIENCE. If you ever need to sell your trailer you really want to make it appeal to a very broad audience.. Sort of like painting an entire house interior fire engine red, dark purple or even black inside on every wall, not many folks are going to like that..

Most folks camping WANT decent storage, that means LOTS OF cabinets and drawers.

Most folks will tend to want a RV toilet so not having to deal with a manure tray inside the RV.

Most folks will WANT a COMPLETE INDOOR KITCHEN, even if they do not use it or only use it a few times..

You HAVE been given lots of good advice, for YOUR OWN GOOD you should HEED the advice..

You came here seeking advice, and yet you stubbornly slam and put down the advice given because it doesn’t fit what you think others want.. There was no sense of you ever putting your ramblings on this or any other forums..

If you want to make a go of it, then you need to pull your head out of the composting toilet and listen to the excellent advice given..

Even standard off the shelf cargo trailers are expensive, a 7 x 18 base price is $4K HERE

Not including anything else, any options can easily add $3K-$4K to that.. You will be hard pressed to get a one off cargo style trailer built for less than $8K and that is with nothing inside..

A 7 x 18 cargo trailer will weigh in easily at 1750 lbs – 2000 lbs EMPTY

CARGO TRAILER SPECS

A 8 x 18cargo trailer can weigh in around 3,000 lbs EMPTY without any furnishings (my old 20ft TT weighed 3600 lbs empty but that weight is fully furnished and ready to camp).

I researched this extensively years ago when I was considering building from scratch.. I ended up buying a used travel trailer in the length I wanted and gutted it and rebuilt it to my needs. Saved money and weight.

For your minimalist taste I am puzzled as to why you just don’t build or buy a simple lightweight and small “tear drop” trailer. They are dead simple, lightweight and have a minimum of your alleged maintenance issues (no slides, no floor registers MANY HAVE NO BATHROOM), they often do have a two burner stove but as I mentioned you can COVER the stove when not in use). There are manufacturers which make modern day tear drops, TAB is one..

TAB FLOOR PLANS

Another design to consider is the molded fiberglass styles, here is several examples..

EGG CAMPER

EGG FLOOR PLANS

PARKLINER FLOOR PLANS

“First, since when does the customer ever know what they really want? (At one time even Ford Pintos sold well) Second, the whole RV manufacturing industry is built on a premise contrary to customers needs.”

Actually the customer DOES know what they want (just like YOU KNOW WHAT YOU WANT, you ARE a “customer” even if you design it yourself), hence the reason there is literally tens of thousands of floor plans over the years in camping trailers.

RV manufacturers build a BLEND of trailers which are designed to suit a BROAD range and spectrum of buyers, the designs include and incorporate the most popular needs and items into the design in order to not have to custom design "one offs". It is a cookie cutter approach and that approach HAS been in use since good ole Henry Ford applied it to building Model Ts.

I suspect your design for the basic trailer you are going to be well over $15K materials and labor not including interior and for the interior that could easily push it another $10K -$15K in labor and materials.. Labor is a killer and no way to get around it unless you completely do it yourself from ground up.

So my guess is you will be looking at$25K- $30K at the min to build and if you wanted to “sell” them you would have to be selling them for at least $60K just to make enough back to buy materials for the next build. If you are lucky you might get $1K-$5K “profit” but then you now have to WARRANTY your trailer so there goes your $1K-$5K “profit” back into the bucket to cover the warranty period..

Then there is the build time.. Something on this magnitude of scale is going to eat a lot of man hrs, building a one off like this you could be looking at 3 months – 6 months of build time in a small shop.. Kind of hard to live on $4K-$5K or nothing for a year..

A wise man I worked for many years ago, told me the customer is ALWAYS YOUR BOSS, the CUSTOMER ALWAYS IS FIRST, the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT. Your audacity of saying the customer has no idea what they want is wrong and your venture is destined to fail.

He was a smart businessman.. RIP.

Just a FYI, Pintos were not a “failure”, in fact they sold very well, was a solid econo car getting 30+ MPG in the ‘70s and were witch hunted because of the success in sales.

It was a lightweight sub compact car and was inexpensive to buy with great mileage. The Pinto tank was no worse for a fire hazard than a Chevy, Dodge or any other vehicle manufactured with the SAME STYLE rear fuel tank, there was MILLIONS of vehicles built form the 1960s through the 1980s which used the same rear tank design.

If it is FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL USE then get it built any way you see fit and use it..

But your not going to sell me on it as a good idea.. Your design solves problems which only exist in YOUR mind..

Hopefully I got this in before the mods dump this train wreck of a thread into the abyss..

gmw photos wrote:

OhhWell wrote:
You guys are till pitting way too much energy into responding to this boor.

Exactly. This OP individual is either exceedingly misguided, or simply a troll.
That was quite a reply there GDE.....you're willing to put way more effort into a reply that will fall on deaf ears than I am.

OhhWell wrote:
You guys are till pitting way too much energy into responding to this boor.