Wonder if truck makers will start making 10001 # 1/2 tons.

And another thing, If you all don't start encouraging and support alternate sources,you are doing the nation an amazing disservice. I can guarantee that if we as a nation do not get behind new power,with support and yes, even subsidies, China is going to eat our lunch. They are already ahead on the technology.
So go ahead and stick your head in the sand and your dupa in the air, because our grandchildren will be driving Chinese cars or at least ones that China will be pulling royalty payment from.

Most of you guys are just amazing!!!!!! You sit there in your smugness, declaring that there will be no electric vehicles, that battery technology will never be adequate, that the grid does not have the capacity,that this won't work and that won't work
1964 your high school graduation. They would yank your diploma and lock you up if you started goingon about a device the same size as a pack of cigarettes,( which you are familiar with because everyone smoked)that could make phone calls, do calculations,display maps and directions, receive broadcasts, and put the knowledge of the world at your fingertips. Tell them about that oven your mom has that can heat a can of soup in 3 minutes.
Tell your classmates about adaptive cruise control, collision avoidance,lane assistance.
Tearfully shout your goodbyes as they load you into the nut wagon.
Some of you guys really need to think past the end of your nose!

Groover wrote:


I am very flattered that you think that I am a youngster. If that fits me then you must be geriatric.

That statement probably should not of been directed to you. Many people act like they wake up in a new world every morning. Seems like they are not aware there was a yesterday, let alone what happened then influences what will happen today, or tomorrow. And often, when I show some history, what I remember, (I freely admit much of my memory went up in smoke in the '60s-'70s-part of '80s) the post disappears

OPEC is the primary organization that I referred to as the beneficiary of the poor decisions that were made in the 1970s. That same President that put up the solar panels on the White House as a symbolic move made a lot of other poor decisions that led to both a lot global warming and his removal after one term, even though the two weren't yet connected.

Avoiding discussion of the removal.
I would like to know what policies put in place in the late '70s helped OPIC. And because very few policies lasted thru the next administration, how there could be long term affects.

JAC1982 wrote:
I'm a big ol' liberal and even I can recognize that electric vehicles, as things stand now, are not practical for everyone. The initial cost is one thing. But the infrastructure to support them is another.

I don't think the country or the cars are ready for all electric cars. OTOH, much of my work has involved hauling into new housing developments. Over the last 20 years, I can't think of a single development where there where single car garage, and 3 car is not uncommon. And most of the car trips could be made in E cars.

I think of families who live in large apartment complexes or buildings. Where would they all charge their vehicles? Who is going to pay for the charging units to be installed in these places? Who will be maintaining them? Will the apartments charge the tenants to use them? What about at large employers like warehouses or factories, is the employer going to pay to install 100 charging stations for employees to use?

As for the cost, even for non-electric cars, it's difficult to find a brand new car that is sub-20k anymore. Especially for a family with more than 2 kids. And the long term reliability of the current electric vehicles is still too much of an unknown to make the used market super viable, whereas a lower income family can probably find a mostly-reliable used gas vehicle.
Now, some of this will probably be figured out in 10 years... but there's still a long way to go to make them viable for the vast majority of the population.

I bet a lot of companies have learned in the last year that a lot of office costs can be transferred to the employee, and many of the employees have learned the office costs are less than the transportation costs they have been paying.
10 years? Ask any 3rd grader; Bet all of them can understand, no matter how big a sack of cookies is, if you take cookies out of that sack every day sooner or later, that sack will be MT. And by the same token, no matter how big your holding tank is, you keep pooping in it, it will get full. About the time I was in grade school, there was discussion about the world has limits. For about 50 years much of the world has been discussing what the limits are, but for much of what US calls leadership, the discussion is still "Are there limits?"

KD4UPL wrote:

JRscooby wrote:

KD4UPL wrote:
It's amazing how someone can think their way of life needs to imposed on everyone else even though they don't understand other people's way of life.

Yes, the whole world must comply with our way of life, no matter if our grandkids have no clean air or water

Do you have any idea what it takes to make a battery? Lithium, Cobalt, Nickel, and Magnesium are all MINED; largely in third world countries. The mines for these rare metals are huge; they burn vast amounts of DIESEL fuel to power the mining machines and trucks. There is lots of ground water contamination. There is lots of child labor being used. Further, unlike lead acid batteries, lithium batteries are not very recyclable; they are mostly just a throw-away battery. Current recycling "technology" for lithium batteries includes basically burning them to smelt the precious metals back out. Further, all these electric cars being recharged from a grid that is still 63% fueled by fossil fuels.
Anyone who thinks electric cars are "saving the planet" or keeping the air and water clean isn't looking at the whole picture.

Batteries is widening the discussion a little. But the irony I see when an American is whining about others pushing their ideas on us.
Do you understand most people in the world don't travel as far in their life as we do in a year? Most food in the world is consumed within a few miles of where it is produced?
The fact is the whole world shares in the cost of our lifestyle.

JRscooby wrote:

KD4UPL wrote:
It's amazing how someone can think their way of life needs to imposed on everyone else even though they don't understand other people's way of life.

Yes, the whole world must comply with our way of life, no matter if our grandkids have no clean air or water

Do you have any idea what it takes to make a battery? Lithium, Cobalt, Nickel, and Magnesium are all MINED; largely in third world countries. The mines for these rare metals are huge; they burn vast amounts of DIESEL fuel to power the mining machines and trucks. There is lots of ground water contamination. There is lots of child labor being used. Further, unlike lead acid batteries, lithium batteries are not very recyclable; they are mostly just a throw-away battery. Current recycling "technology" for lithium batteries includes basically burning them to smelt the precious metals back out. Further, all these electric cars being recharged from a grid that is still 63% fueled by fossil fuels.
Anyone who thinks electric cars are "saving the planet" or keeping the air and water clean isn't looking at the whole picture.

We need to stay focused on solving the problem without getting hung up on how it is done. I am probably going to buy a Tesla soon but if we can solve the CO2 problem some other way that is great, options are always good.

Porsche claim to have one of these other ways and it shouldn't be ignored.

Porsche green fuel

I have heard other big names like Exxon, GM and CAT claim to have a green fuel but fail to bring it to market so I am a little cautious but here's hoping it is for real this time.

IdaD wrote:

Reisender wrote:

IdaD wrote:
If we're going to transition ground transportation to electricity, we're going to need to generate a lot more of it and beef up the grid to handle the extra workload. It isn't simply a matter of adding charging stations. I have no idea how much fossil fuel goes into ground transportation or how that energy would translate to electricity but it's probably significant. I would also say that unless that extra electricity comes from green energy, I'm not sure we're netting out much benefit. Although I suppose there's some value in beginning the transition.

On the BC Hydro website they indicate that if every personal vehicle in the province were to magically become electric overnight the grid load would increase by 19 percent. So space that out over a few decades and it’s not such a big deal. There are still new Dams coming online in the next few years that would cover that easily... for BC at least.

Jmho. Not an expert.

Does the 19% include commercial or is that just personal vehicles? An 80,000 lb or more semi is going to chew up a lot more juice than a typical small EV. I would agree that over time it's still doable, but it's a a big process to not just generate that much more electricity but also distribute it. I live in the northwest US so I benefit a lot from hydro but I also don't see that as a very viable long term green energy source given the environmental concerns associated with it.

I don't know. Its kind of vague. I doubt it includes heavy trucks.

Reisender wrote:

IdaD wrote:
If we're going to transition ground transportation to electricity, we're going to need to generate a lot more of it and beef up the grid to handle the extra workload. It isn't simply a matter of adding charging stations. I have no idea how much fossil fuel goes into ground transportation or how that energy would translate to electricity but it's probably significant. I would also say that unless that extra electricity comes from green energy, I'm not sure we're netting out much benefit. Although I suppose there's some value in beginning the transition.

On the BC Hydro website they indicate that if every personal vehicle in the province were to magically become electric overnight the grid load would increase by 19 percent. So space that out over a few decades and it’s not such a big deal. There are still new Dams coming online in the next few years that would cover that easily... for BC at least.

Jmho. Not an expert.

Does the 19% include commercial or is that just personal vehicles? An 80,000 lb or more semi is going to chew up a lot more juice than a typical small EV. I would agree that over time it's still doable, but it's a a big process to not just generate that much more electricity but also distribute it. I live in the northwest US so I benefit a lot from hydro but I also don't see that as a very viable long term green energy source given the environmental concerns associated with it.

IdaD wrote:
If we're going to transition ground transportation to electricity, we're going to need to generate a lot more of it and beef up the grid to handle the extra workload. It isn't simply a matter of adding charging stations. I have no idea how much fossil fuel goes into ground transportation or how that energy would translate to electricity but it's probably significant. I would also say that unless that extra electricity comes from green energy, I'm not sure we're netting out much benefit. Although I suppose there's some value in beginning the transition.

On the BC Hydro website they indicate that if every personal vehicle in the province were to magically become electric overnight the grid load would increase by 19 percent. So space that out over a few decades and it’s not such a big deal. There are still new Dams coming online in the next few years that would cover that easily... for BC at least.

Jmho. Not an expert.

If we're going to transition ground transportation to electricity, we're going to need to generate a lot more of it and beef up the grid to handle the extra workload. It isn't simply a matter of adding charging stations. I have no idea how much fossil fuel goes into ground transportation or how that energy would translate to electricity but it's probably significant. I would also say that unless that extra electricity comes from green energy, I'm not sure we're netting out much benefit. Although I suppose there's some value in beginning the transition.

I'm a big ol' liberal and even I can recognize that electric vehicles, as things stand now, are not practical for everyone. The initial cost is one thing. But the infrastructure to support them is another.

I think of families who live in large apartment complexes or buildings. Where would they all charge their vehicles? Who is going to pay for the charging units to be installed in these places? Who will be maintaining them? Will the apartments charge the tenants to use them? What about at large employers like warehouses or factories, is the employer going to pay to install 100 charging stations for employees to use?

As for the cost, even for non-electric cars, it's difficult to find a brand new car that is sub-20k anymore. Especially for a family with more than 2 kids. And the long term reliability of the current electric vehicles is still too much of an unknown to make the used market super viable, whereas a lower income family can probably find a mostly-reliable used gas vehicle.

I have a friend with a Tesla. He likes to take road trips where he just wanders around to explore. He's limited to where he can go now because of the need for charging the car. He has acknowledged that buying the Tesla probably wasn't the best idea for him and his hobby. I have another friend who would love to have one, but to install a charging station at her house would be quite costly (she does not have electric at all where they park their vehicles at their house). Might work out in the long run vs the cost of gas, but it's a big up front expense.

Now, some of this will probably be figured out in 10 years... but there's still a long way to go to make them viable for the vast majority of the population.