Exploring Ontario parks, Looking at campsites for the thanks giving weekend (CDN), I usually and have for the past few years gone for the entire week before thanks giving, it amazes me how many sites are already booked and for 21 or more days in advance, as we technically can't book that weekend until next week, in showing up I happen to notice in the past couple years the level of bookings at this time does not reflect the number of occupied sites when I get there.I know I know, is it hurting me?, ummmm in some ways yes, being empty nesters, we are trying more off season travel as the parks are a little quieter during the week, and this BS is tying up sites when we are trying to reserve for the end of september and a lot of the premium sites are taken then will be canceled a couple months from now. We all know its worse during the summer when jockeying for sites for one of our 4 long weekends sites are booked well in advance then canceling later screwing anyone who is trying to book other times around those weekends.I wish Ontario parks would develop a 0 tolerance policy, and when a person pulls this BS more than once they get a warning on the first time, the next time they loose their entire reservation. having a family emergency and having to alter plans is one thing, but if it happens every year or multiple time each year, that's a clear indicator the person is cheating the system. It is hard enough to plan and get trips booked in this park system, as they have not been growing with the population or the increasing trends of this activity by adding campsites or new parks.

Believe it or not but this has been going on for over 35 yrs. That's when we gave up on Provincial Campgrounds and bought a cottage.

Not just Ontario, common at with many public park systems.The fact is the parks are very busy and people struggle to get reservations. People treat it kind of like doing your taxes. If the system accepts it, people will do it.I do think there are things they could do to minimize some of the games but I'm not sure how much political will there is to fix the problem. - Limit reservation modifications. In particular the start date. Because the systems open reservations X days out, people figured out, book X+7 days before the start of a holiday weekend and you get in before people doing a legitimate booking for the holiday weekend. Maybe change it so the arrival date can't be changed by more than 2 days without making a completely new reservation (assuming there are available sites). That would address 99% of legitimate changes but reduce the majority of people gaming the system. - Some people will simply pay for extra days to get a popular weekend. Public parks tend to be lower cost, so if the alternative is no site, they may be willing to pay an extra $100-150 if it gets them the site even if they don't use those nights. I'm not sure if it's still the rule but for Michigan state parks, it used to be, you had to have the RV (or tent) in the site and you had to stay overnight. That largely took care of this issue because if you didn't show up, you lost the reservation.

The "must occupy the site on the first night of the reservation or you forfeit the entire reservation" is the standard to thwart this.Some folks don't like it for various reasons, but it does stop the behavior.

Here in BC they updated “again” this year the BC Parks reservations system.You can’t book a reservation more than 2 months in the future. So like today is April 28th, you can now book June 28th, however you can with that reservation book the 28th and up to 14 days after that.You can only book 14 days at a time per campsite. You loose your reservation completely if you don’t occupy that site by 11:am the next day, after date of arrival.Can’t modify a reservation, so if you book a 7 day reservation, you can’t go back in and cancel a “couple” days on either end.However you can cancel the entire reservation with restrictions ( ie. penalties, cancellation limitations)It’s not perfect, but it’s getting better.

toedtoes wrote:The "must occupy the site on the first night of the reservation or you forfeit the entire reservation" is the standard to thwart this.Some folks don't like it for various reasons, but it does stop the behavior.This doesn't always work. We have a favorite FS CG here and they have this policy, but we've seen the reservers not show on the first, second, third nights and yet the site is still empty!

reservation system cheating still prolific in ontario parks.

relaxin
Explorer
May 01, 2022
toedtoes wrote:
StirCrazy wrote:
SideHillSoup wrote:

Can’t modify a reservation, so if you book a 7 day reservation, you can’t go back in and cancel a “couple” days on either end.
However you can cancel the entire reservation with restrictions ( ie. penalties, cancellation limitations).

Is that part new? you could modify your reservation to your hearts content last year as long as it was before the checkin date and you did it online or by calling in. this will be great if thats a new addition as it will stop people from booking a two week span then modifying it to the long weekend they were originaly wanting as the actual dates for that weekend came into the booking period.

Steve

When we booked for a US national park this year, we were locked from modifying the reservation for 15 days. With a 14 day max stay, this stops those who used to book the 14 days right before the holiday, thereby holding the site hostage, and then modifying the reservation to include the holiday as soon as possible. Technically, they could do this for an entire season, just repeatedly modifying the dates over and over - and no one else would ever be able to get that site away from them.

With the 15 day no modification freeze, they cannot modify the reservation until 24 hours AFTER their original reservation stay end. So, everyone else can book the site starting the day of the scammer's check out, while the scammer is still frozen.

That doesn't stop folks from booking a full 14 days including the holiday and then changing it to just the holiday weekend later. They are moost always "must occupy the first night" so they have to change the reservation beforehand, which opens up the site to folks wanting the week before the holiday.

When our reservation system went online, ( 25 or so years ago) We had a huge problem with that, they called it "roll over booking" where someone would book a site at the beginning of the season ( late april early may park dependant), for the max of 23 nights, then before the 23rd day comes to the 5 month mark, bump the whole reservation forward 20+ days, and do that over and over to get to the dates they want then shorten to the weekend they want, and it use to only cost the $5 res fee. after several years of complaining by a lot of people and they looked at the booking patterns, they changed the ability to change a reservation to 4 month ahead opening up the site for 7 or so days past the booking, however if you have a spouse or friend you could get them to open an account with a separate credit card and keep rolling it forward, using 2 accounts.
It would be nice if they would track this stuff and boot the people who do it constantly. and the park system adding at least another 2000 sites across the province would be a start to reducing the need some folks feel to cheat the system.

https://reservations.ontarioparks.com/
ReneeG
Explorer
Apr 29, 2022
toedtoes wrote:
ReneeG wrote:

1. A lot of campers drive through looking for sites and these always remain empty and I've seen some stop at the host and some don't.
2. I think this is the case, yet, the FS drives through too.
3. This particular CG is always booked solid. It's a popular site.

I would recommend writing a letter to the overseeing district and voice a concern that the first night must be occupied rule is not being enforced and folks are being turned away while sites sit empty from no shows.

Rules only work if they are enforced. It may be the district that is failing to enforce, or it may be the host.

At one of my favorite FS campgrounds, there is no host. In peak season, a ranger drives through daily after check out time and checks for occupancy. If not occupied, they pull the reserved tag.

Off peak season, the ranger only comes through a couple times a week. Usually on Monday to post reserved tags for the following weekend and then again on Thursday to make sure someone hasn't squatted any of the reserved sites. As the campground usually doesn't fill up off season, there is always another spot. But, if you drove up on Saturday after check out and the reservee hadn't shown, you could simply take the spot - tag or not. If they appeared later or the next day, they wouldn't be able to claim that site and kick you out. Instead, they would need to take a different site. The rangers wouldn't have bothered to cancel the reservation, but they wouldn't enforce the reservation site.

I'm going to do that next time we stay there.
toedtoes
Explorer III
Apr 29, 2022
ReneeG wrote:

1. A lot of campers drive through looking for sites and these always remain empty and I've seen some stop at the host and some don't.
2. I think this is the case, yet, the FS drives through too.
3. This particular CG is always booked solid. It's a popular site.

I would recommend writing a letter to the overseeing district and voice a concern that the first night must be occupied rule is not being enforced and folks are being turned away while sites sit empty from no shows.

Rules only work if they are enforced. It may be the district that is failing to enforce, or it may be the host.

At one of my favorite FS campgrounds, there is no host. In peak season, a ranger drives through daily after check out time and checks for occupancy. If not occupied, they pull the reserved tag.

Off peak season, the ranger only comes through a couple times a week. Usually on Monday to post reserved tags for the following weekend and then again on Thursday to make sure someone hasn't squatted any of the reserved sites. As the campground usually doesn't fill up off season, there is always another spot. But, if you drove up on Saturday after check out and the reservee hadn't shown, you could simply take the spot - tag or not. If they appeared later or the next day, they wouldn't be able to claim that site and kick you out. Instead, they would need to take a different site. The rangers wouldn't have bothered to cancel the reservation, but they wouldn't enforce the reservation site.
toedtoes
Explorer III
Apr 29, 2022
StirCrazy wrote:
SideHillSoup wrote:

Can’t modify a reservation, so if you book a 7 day reservation, you can’t go back in and cancel a “couple” days on either end.
However you can cancel the entire reservation with restrictions ( ie. penalties, cancellation limitations).

Is that part new? you could modify your reservation to your hearts content last year as long as it was before the checkin date and you did it online or by calling in. this will be great if thats a new addition as it will stop people from booking a two week span then modifying it to the long weekend they were originaly wanting as the actual dates for that weekend came into the booking period.

Steve

When we booked for a US national park this year, we were locked from modifying the reservation for 15 days. With a 14 day max stay, this stops those who used to book the 14 days right before the holiday, thereby holding the site hostage, and then modifying the reservation to include the holiday as soon as possible. Technically, they could do this for an entire season, just repeatedly modifying the dates over and over - and no one else would ever be able to get that site away from them.

With the 15 day no modification freeze, they cannot modify the reservation until 24 hours AFTER their original reservation stay end. So, everyone else can book the site starting the day of the scammer's check out, while the scammer is still frozen.

That doesn't stop folks from booking a full 14 days including the holiday and then changing it to just the holiday weekend later. They are moost always "must occupy the first night" so they have to change the reservation beforehand, which opens up the site to folks wanting the week before the holiday.
SideHillSoup
Explorer
Apr 29, 2022
StirCrazy wrote:
SideHillSoup wrote:

Can’t modify a reservation, so if you book a 7 day reservation, you can’t go back in and cancel a “couple” days on either end.
However you can cancel the entire reservation with restrictions ( ie. penalties, cancellation limitations).

Is that part new? you could modify your reservation to your hearts content last year as long as it was before the checkin date and you did it online or by calling in. this will be great if thats a new addition as it will stop people from booking a two week span then modifying it to the long weekend they were originaly wanting as the actual dates for that weekend came into the booking period.

Steve

Morning Steve, how’s the North Country?
BC Parks “supposedly” put a stop or changed / modifications to reservations that can be made. You have to pay your $5 bucks to find out if you can.
I know if you make a reservation in the first week of the 2 month window, you can’t change “modify “ you arrival date.
That’s also the same reason that if you don’t show up to your campsite by 11:am the second day, you loose the entire reservation.
However if you have vehicle issues etc and you have contacted the site contractor and explained your situation they can make considerations.
Now you can cancel and make modifications to your reservation for a $5 fee, but what modifications you can make or can’t make I’m not sure. When the new reservation system was rolled out there was a lot of news reports and interviews with Govt spokes people taking about the changes and the modifications was one of them.
In saying all that, it may not have changed

Now I haven’t been out this year yet as it’s still snowing …. However next week we hit the road for our spring ( cold spring) shake down trip. I will ask Ricky Ranger about the changes.
valhalla360
Navigator
Apr 29, 2022
ReneeG wrote:
toedtoes wrote:
The "must occupy the site on the first night of the reservation or you forfeit the entire reservation" is the standard to thwart this.

Some folks don't like it for various reasons, but it does stop the behavior.

This doesn't always work. We have a favorite FS CG here and they have this policy, but we've seen the reservers not show on the first, second, third nights and yet the site is still empty!

If they never show up, that's likely a different issue and they aren't gaming the reservation system...presumably if the reservation and full site fee is forfeit, there's some pain and the are less likely to do it in the future, so over time, the problem should be reduced (maybe not 100% but even 95% will have a big impact). Also, if those sites go back onto the system right away after they miss the first night, people will learn to look for last minute openings. Net effect is fewer unused sites due to people gaming the system.

Now if they show up on the 4th night and the park staff lets them have the site, it defeats the purpose and encourages bad behavior.
ReneeG
Explorer
Apr 29, 2022
toedtoes wrote:
ReneeG wrote:
toedtoes wrote:
The "must occupy the site on the first night of the reservation or you forfeit the entire reservation" is the standard to thwart this.

Some folks don't like it for various reasons, but it does stop the behavior.

This doesn't always work. We have a favorite FS CG here and they have this policy, but we've seen the reservers not show on the first, second, third nights and yet the site is still empty!

There are three things at play here:

1. just because a reservation is forfeited doesn't mean the site will be filled by another camper. This only opens up the site to folks who drive to the campground looking for first come first serve sites, or for people to make reservations online two-four days out.

2. it doesn't work if the individual campground doesn't enforce it. It requires a camphost or ranger to check the campsites each day at checkout time to see if it was occupied or not.

3. If the campground isn't booked solid, they may not worry about it as there are other spots available.

1. A lot of campers drive through looking for sites and these always remain empty and I've seen some stop at the host and some don't.
2. I think this is the case, yet, the FS drives through too.
3. This particular CG is always booked solid. It's a popular site.
Reisender
Nomad
Apr 29, 2022
SideHillSoup wrote:
Here in BC they updated “again” this year the BC Parks reservations system.
You can’t book a reservation more than 2 months in the future. So like today is April 28th, you can now book June 28th, however you can with that reservation book the 28th and up to 14 days after that.
You can only book 14 days at a time per campsite.
You loose your reservation completely if you don’t occupy that site by 11:am the next day, after date of arrival.
Can’t modify a reservation, so if you book a 7 day reservation, you can’t go back in and cancel a “couple” days on either end.
However you can cancel the entire reservation with restrictions ( ie. penalties, cancellation limitations)
It’s not perfect, but it’s getting better.

Hey Soup. Yep. It’s better this year. We have been out a few times this year already. Talking to the staff they also are keeping more first come first serve sites in reserve. Should be better.
StirCrazy
Moderator
Apr 29, 2022
SideHillSoup wrote:

Can’t modify a reservation, so if you book a 7 day reservation, you can’t go back in and cancel a “couple” days on either end.
However you can cancel the entire reservation with restrictions ( ie. penalties, cancellation limitations).

Is that part new? you could modify your reservation to your hearts content last year as long as it was before the checkin date and you did it online or by calling in. this will be great if thats a new addition as it will stop people from booking a two week span then modifying it to the long weekend they were originaly wanting as the actual dates for that weekend came into the booking period.

Steve
relaxin
Explorer
Apr 29, 2022
I do have to admit the sheer level of this activity for the TG weekend is quite a bit less than last year, perhaps the crappy weather last year has made some folks hold off, or its like a domino effect, some watch the system and if the park they want starts to book up early they jump on the bandwagon and book early. Last year at this time the park we go to on TG was almost 3/4 booked on the serviced sites this year is far less, but some other parks have quite a few bookings already.
Its just annoying as one of the parks we want to go to this year for the last week of september, has a bunch of bookings, each 20 to 21 days ahead of the TG weekend, and of about a dozen sites that are on high ground ( that don't turn into a lake or mudhole in prolonged rains) that will fit our unit are all booked, I guess we'll have to wait to see when these folks start shortening their reservations, and freeing up some of these spaces.
For anyone who camps in Ontario start or keep sending letters to OnParks, they do respond to complaints and suggestions, it just takes a lot of letters and time.