Bogus campsite reservations

[RRinNFla]

Recently, there was a post in another forum where the OP questioned the honesty of campground operators who swore he was getting the last site, only to find the CG half empty when he arrived.

This got me thinking about something that happens at Florida state parks, and I would imagine is a problem in other places as well. There have been many times when I have reserved one of the last available sites at a SP CG, but noticed many empty sites once I arrived.

Earlier this week, DW and I were camping at Tomoka SP, and our travels took us near Gamble Rogers in Flagler Beach, FL. We had heard this was a great spot and decided we wanted to take a look at the CG. The current CG has 34 spaces, literally on the oceanfront. We parked, walked past the sign that said "Registered Campers Only" and were looking at the various rigs and campsites, when a ranger asked us if we had obtained walk-through passes. (I had never heard of this, and it has been a long time since I was scolded by a ranger) Anyway, this led to a conversation about how popular this CG has become. There were several empty sites, but the ranger insisted they were fully booked.

This is how the ranger explained this phenomenon to me. When the reservation window opens up 11 months in advance. Some RVers will reserve every weekend in a given month, or the entire month, not knowing exactly when they will be able to travel. When their travel date gets closer they simply cancel the dates they don't want and pay a $17.50 cancellation fee for each cancellation.

So here is the math. The guy (who probably owns a $250K DP) reserves a large site every weekend for June committing $204 in reservation fees ($28/night times 8). When he cancels the other weekends he ends up spending $56 for one weekend, plus $52.50 in cancellation fees. So what does he get for $108.50, his choice of weekends, in season, at a campsite just steps from the Atlantic Ocean. Meanwhile the sites were unavailable for reservations by others.

My gripe: what about those of us who can't make plans 11 months in advance or don't feel like we have and extra $50 to throw away. I thought that part of the idea of the park system was to make sure that these lovely places were not reserved solely for the wealthy.

Am I being unreasonable?

Is there a better way?

[Lantley]

I think the abuse and gaming can be reduced significantly. There are some very large loop holes in a lot of the reservation polices that are routinely exploited.
Management of both public and private parks just need to have the will to close the loop holes. Currently many lack the will to stop the abusers.
Closing the loopholes will have some unattended consequences. There will be a few that will suffer and forfeit their deposits unfairly.
However closing the loop holes will allow improved access to the CG's for everyone.

[wnjj]

westernrvparkowner wrote:

wnjj wrote:

GordonThree wrote:

Robin1953 wrote:

RRinNFla wrote:
I don't think Michigan's system would stop this practice. These folks make four separate reservations, then cancel the ones they don't want at the last minute. They do pay up front, but if they cancel they get all but 17.50 refunded.

I suspect that if they got zero refunds you would see a lot less of this. Losing $500 (hypothetically) as opposed to $17.50 would be a great deterrent. If a cancellation costs minimal dollars I suspect the practice will continue.

Sounds fair to me... zero refund policy for reservations - the airlines can do it, and many hotels, why not campgrounds?

How about a compromise to help out folks with legitimate reasons? If you have a reservation somewhere that you keep, no refund for all of the rest that you cancel. So if you only have one reservation in the first place and cancel it, you only pay the fee. Or if you only cancel some percentage of the days (like 1/4) on your reservation you only pay the fee. The last one would stop the 2-weekend bookers who book 10 days just to get one weekend.

Also don't allow refundable cancelations all the way up until the last minute to allow time for others to book the spot. Cut off all refunds a few weeks out.

Where would you draw the line on legitimate reasons and who is going to be the judge? I can say my mother in law died hundreds of times. Same with I had mechanical problems, got called to jury duty, dog ate my homework and on and on. How would you know if someone kept a reservation somewhere else? There is no way anything can be verified. Either you have a refund policy or you don't. Creating one with all sorts of loopholes, exceptions and gray areas means you don't have a policy.

You missed my point completely. I was speaking to the post I quoted where people were making 4 reservations and canceling 3. I say they can do that but get no money back for the cancellations. A legitimate camper doesn't book 4 and cancel 3. No judgement needed. Same idea with cancelling more of your trip than you keep. Booking 10 days and canceling 7 is not legit. Booking 10 and canceling all 10 is.

[westernrvparkow]

Naio wrote:
I'm a business owner. I make my living by looking for opportunities that have not yet been developed by other people. This puts me in the weird position of being, AFAICT, the farthest-left person on this forum, but unbothered by the unregulated systems described in this thread.

I like the contradictions this thread brings out! In me and everyone. They tickle my brain.

As for fairness, well, I don't like any system that makes me have to get online in the wee hours :). I think a lottery system would be much more fair to people who have to work, etc.

Anything that involves fines, cancellation fees, etc., will have no effect on people with money but will be a serious hardship for people with less.

Rich people get rich precisely because they care where every dollar goes. They aren't into wasting money. It's actually the language they most understand. Stiff cancellation fees absolutely puts a brake on multiple unused reservations. That is experience talking.

[Naio]

I'm a business owner. I make my living by looking for opportunities that have not yet been developed by other people. This puts me in the weird position of being, AFAICT, the farthest-left person on this forum, but unbothered by the unregulated systems described in this thread.

I like the contradictions this thread brings out! In me and everyone. They tickle my brain.

As for fairness, well, I don't like any system that makes me have to get online in the wee hours :). I think a lottery system would be much more fair to people who have to work, etc.

Anything that involves fines, cancellation fees, etc., will have no effect on people with money but will be a serious hardship for people with less.

[Lantley]

I agree with MOnkey44 for the most part. However at some point. A"If you can't beat join'em " mentality takes place. Others who are not necessarily jerks game the system because it is the only way to get a site.
The rules/software need to be improved to create fairer access for everyone.
In some cases the policies/rules have too many loop holes which are exploited originally by jerks, but eventually by everyone.
Once the loop holes are closed I agree overall revenue and occupancy should increase.

[monkey44]

Naio wrote:
It's pretty humorous to see a long thread on a fairly conservative forum, where people are almost unanimously arguing against the free market and for increased regulation.

'Regulation is needed to protect the little guy' is the foundation of liberalism.

And y'all are saying the parks should comb through their data, find the patterns that show them who is gaming the system, and write software that spots those patterns and blocks them. Are you voting for increased taxes to pay for that, at standard software engineers' salaries?

I'd vote for it, but I am a bleeding heart treehugger :).

Well, kinda the way I read it, the empty sites that have been refunded with only a cancel fee would be full instead of vacant, so the added fees for full campground sites would pay for a program that caught the jerks that over-book with the full intention of canceling ... And I say jerks because they do it intentionally, not accidental or with good reason.

My opinion only :: Half reserves, half walk-on is the best for more people. Also limiting the number of days or weekends for anyone person - family - (and ID check)would help, AND Larger fines or cancel fees after ONE cancellation.

Would still have the jerks, but less of them and better access for the majority of campers.

One thing I'm guessing -- you can reserve nine days, get two weekends, and leave the week open for one reservation fee - which have nearly doubled since last year.

[Naio]

It's pretty humorous to see a long thread on a fairly conservative forum, where people are almost unanimously arguing against the free market and for increased regulation.

'Regulation is needed to protect the little guy' is the foundation of liberalism.

And y'all are saying the parks should comb through their data, find the patterns that show them who is gaming the system, and write software that spots those patterns and blocks them. Are you voting for increased taxes to pay for that, at standard software engineers' salaries?

I'd vote for it, but I am a bleeding heart treehugger :).

[tsetsaf]

Went to Glacier NP last year tent camping. Pulled up to the entrance gate and the sign said all the campgrounds were full. Decided to drive on anyways and found this was a total lie. Some of the campgrounds were nearly empty. Called the park service and was told they "estimate" capacity to prevent people from driving all the way back to an empty campsite. At the end of the season read an article saying Glacier campnight stays were down 4% and the park service could not figure out why!! Gov'ment agencies are not the best managers of businesses and campgrounds are a business.

[GordonThree]

westernrvparkowner wrote:

x96mnn wrote:
As an idea,

All bookings are paid in advance.
Cancelation fee would apply of 10% of the booked value
Refund would be of non cash value but camping credits.
Camping credits used for future bookings, being non cash value would not be refunded during cancelation.

Example, I book 10 days in July, pay 300 up front. I show up for five, my bill is $150 for the days I use and I get a camping credit of $135 for the canceled days. I book 5 more days and show up, I use my camping credit for the $135 and pay the extra $15. I do not show up I am out the $135 camping credits and I receive a $13.50 camping credit for refund on the $15 I spent out of pocket.

System is not perfect, it helps those who cancel for legit reasons. It does not help those who live a lifestyle that causes frequent change. System in use today's does not work for everyone, any system implemented will not work for everyone.

Not bad, except it would strongly benefit the locals and punish the out of towners. The locals wouldn't care if they had credits, they would just use them instead of cash for the next trip. No skin off their teeth. The visitors from far away who had to cancel due to a legit reason might never get to use those credits so they would be out the full $150 in your example while the guy who really abuses the system, books every weekend, only planning on using it when the weather is good, would be out $15.00 .

As I read it, the credits could only be re-used one time, as only cash is refunded as credit - no refund for credit. So the abuser would forfeit their payment if they canceled twice in a row.

[westernrvparkow]

x96mnn wrote:
As an idea,

All bookings are paid in advance.
Cancelation fee would apply of 10% of the booked value
Refund would be of non cash value but camping credits.
Camping credits used for future bookings, being non cash value would not be refunded during cancelation.

Example, I book 10 days in July, pay 300 up front. I show up for five, my bill is $150 for the days I use and I get a camping credit of $135 for the canceled days. I book 5 more days and show up, I use my camping credit for the $135 and pay the extra $15. I do not show up I am out the $135 camping credits and I receive a $13.50 camping credit for refund on the $15 I spent out of pocket.

System is not perfect, it helps those who cancel for legit reasons. It does not help those who live a lifestyle that causes frequent change. System in use today's does not work for everyone, any system implemented will not work for everyone.

Not bad, except it would strongly benefit the locals and punish the out of towners. The locals wouldn't care if they had credits, they would just use them instead of cash for the next trip. No skin off their teeth. The visitors from far away who had to cancel due to a legit reason might never get to use those credits so they would be out the full $150 in your example while the guy who really abuses the system, books every weekend, only planning on using it when the weather is good, would be out $15.00 .

[Skid_Row_Joe]

4X4Dodger wrote:

majorgator wrote:
It's very presumptious to put a negative label on all the folks who make reservations like this. The truth is, we do this ourselves sometimes. As a contractor who works all over FL, my schedule changes almost daily. I might make a reservation for a certain week months in advance, only to have to cancel it the week before because it coincides with a bid...or a bid date changes. Sometimes, instead of picking a certain date, I have to select a date range and make reservations (sometimes multiple) accordingly.

Also, here in FL, this happens terribly during scallop season along the Big Bend area. People will reserve an entire month or 2 of hotel/resort rooms and campground sites just to make sure they get 1 or 2 good weather weekends. I've heard of people reserving MANY rooms at the hotels over a 2 month weekend, then brokering them out for higher fees. Now there IS something to say about that crap...

I am sorry but as a hotel owner in the past in a resort area I cannot imagine that any hotel is allowing this. The person who makes the reservation or the person named in the reservation must be the person standing in front of me with ID to get that room.

I really question the authenticity of this.

Further any hotel that lets one party reserve a block of rooms over a long period is going to ask for a substantial deposit. or full payment of the first night at least. Again I think this is mostly "urban Myth" material...

I think this is why AIRBNB is doing so well. You get nice accommodations for a fraction of the hotel/motel rates, and they're not involved in these monkey shines.

[Rangerman40]

I don't like the game but I have played and won. I wanted to stay at Bahia Honda the week between Christmas and New Years this year so I knew what I had to do.... I drug my but out of bed at 7am every day for two weeks 11 months prior trying to get reservations and eventually nailed two weeks at Long Key that covers the days I need. Am I going to have to cancel a week.... Sure.... Do I care..... Not a bit. It's how the game is played and if I wanted to stay there it's what has to be done. Someone else will reserve my cancelled week and be very happy that they get to spend Christmas in the Keys.... But I'll be there the day after guaranteed.

[soos]

Yes, even being willing to book a FL Keys campground 11 months in advance doesn't guarantee you a site. We tried to book it one year but we were on the WEST coast at the time, so we had to both get up at 4:45 AM and get both smartphones, the ipad, and the computer ready to push the "book now" button at exactly 5 am. After trying for months, we were successful only once.
It was a lot of work because we had to look at and decide the night before which site to "go for" the next morning.

We then checked 2-4 times a day for Months, looking for cancelations. Got a few days that way, but overall? Not worth the hassle.

Sue

[holstein13]

I've wanted to camp at Bahia Honda for years. I would look at the available sites 11.1 months in advance to see if I could get in when the booking window opened up but there were NEVER any sites available for the weekends. So I started to study the situation.

As someone else mentioned, everyone would book a week or two before the 11 month window and simply book a longer stay to include the weekend they wanted. Then they would cancel the unused days.

This is the ONLY way to get a weekend reservation in Bahia Honda or Curry Hammock. It's not about ethics or morality or change fees or cancellation policies at all. If you want to book the weekend in advance, this is what you MUST do. And you'd better be on your computer at exactly 8:00 when you try it. The competition is fierce.

But, as the expression goes, forewarned, is forearmed. You now know what you need to do. Good luck.