Bogus campsite reservations

[RRinNFla]

Recently, there was a post in another forum where the OP questioned the honesty of campground operators who swore he was getting the last site, only to find the CG half empty when he arrived.

This got me thinking about something that happens at Florida state parks, and I would imagine is a problem in other places as well. There have been many times when I have reserved one of the last available sites at a SP CG, but noticed many empty sites once I arrived.

Earlier this week, DW and I were camping at Tomoka SP, and our travels took us near Gamble Rogers in Flagler Beach, FL. We had heard this was a great spot and decided we wanted to take a look at the CG. The current CG has 34 spaces, literally on the oceanfront. We parked, walked past the sign that said "Registered Campers Only" and were looking at the various rigs and campsites, when a ranger asked us if we had obtained walk-through passes. (I had never heard of this, and it has been a long time since I was scolded by a ranger) Anyway, this led to a conversation about how popular this CG has become. There were several empty sites, but the ranger insisted they were fully booked.

This is how the ranger explained this phenomenon to me. When the reservation window opens up 11 months in advance. Some RVers will reserve every weekend in a given month, or the entire month, not knowing exactly when they will be able to travel. When their travel date gets closer they simply cancel the dates they don't want and pay a $17.50 cancellation fee for each cancellation.

So here is the math. The guy (who probably owns a $250K DP) reserves a large site every weekend for June committing $204 in reservation fees ($28/night times 8). When he cancels the other weekends he ends up spending $56 for one weekend, plus $52.50 in cancellation fees. So what does he get for $108.50, his choice of weekends, in season, at a campsite just steps from the Atlantic Ocean. Meanwhile the sites were unavailable for reservations by others.

My gripe: what about those of us who can't make plans 11 months in advance or don't feel like we have and extra $50 to throw away. I thought that part of the idea of the park system was to make sure that these lovely places were not reserved solely for the wealthy.

Am I being unreasonable?

Is there a better way?

[wbwood]

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Where would you draw the line on legitimate reasons and who is going to be the judge? I can say my mother in law died hundreds of times. Same with I had mechanical problems, got called to jury duty, dog ate my homework and on and on. How would you know if someone kept a reservation somewhere else? There is no way anything can be verified. Either you have a refund policy or you don't. Creating one with all sorts of loopholes, exceptions and gray areas means you don't have a policy.

Ditto....every one that says they would go with no refunds will be the first ones crying saying that it's unfair.

I get to pick my vacation one time a year. Normally about the first of December for the next year. If I want to go where everyone else wants to go, then I will be SOL when my vacation time comes to try and make reservations. Especially summer time and spring break. So what I started doing is that I will make reservations and then when December comes and by some chance I can not get the week I reserved, then I cancel and I am out $20 or so. Worth it to me and it still gives people a chance to bet my reservations if I have to cancel. Just like I canceled Curry Hammock and Bahia Honda for a week in July a couple weeks ago. Still gives people the time to get some reservations in there that want them. But if you are going to go to places that are popular and book up easily reservation wise, then you can't *****foot around and try to get them at the last minute. It's very rarely going to happen. If you will be happy in less popular places, then you may get lucky.

[Bowti]

brholt wrote:
Washington States policy to try and deal with this issue:

Washington State Park Cancellation Policy

(Basically, the longer you have held the reservation the greater the cost to cancel. All reservations are also payed for when made).

I think this kind of policy would help, but in the case of the full popular Florida SP Campgrounds there just are not enough sites to go around, so it is always going to be just about impossible to get in these parks. When I have been fortune enough to get into one of these parks I never see a open site. They are booked up tight.

[brholt]

Washington States policy to try and deal with this issue:

Washington State Park Cancellation Policy

(Basically, the longer you have held the reservation the greater the cost to cancel. All reservations are also payed for when made).

[x96mnn]

As an idea,

All bookings are paid in advance.
Cancelation fee would apply of 10% of the booked value
Refund would be of non cash value but camping credits.
Camping credits used for future bookings, being non cash value would not be refunded during cancelation.

Example, I book 10 days in July, pay 300 up front. I show up for five, my bill is $150 for the days I use and I get a camping credit of $135 for the canceled days. I book 5 more days and show up, I use my camping credit for the $135 and pay the extra $15. I do not show up I am out the $135 camping credits and I receive a $13.50 camping credit for refund on the $15 I spent out of pocket.

System is not perfect, it helps those who cancel for legit reasons. It does not help those who live a lifestyle that causes frequent change. System in use today's does not work for everyone, any system implemented will not work for everyone.

[westernrvparkow]

wnjj wrote:

GordonThree wrote:

Robin1953 wrote:

RRinNFla wrote:
I don't think Michigan's system would stop this practice. These folks make four separate reservations, then cancel the ones they don't want at the last minute. They do pay up front, but if they cancel they get all but 17.50 refunded.

I suspect that if they got zero refunds you would see a lot less of this. Losing $500 (hypothetically) as opposed to $17.50 would be a great deterrent. If a cancellation costs minimal dollars I suspect the practice will continue.

Sounds fair to me... zero refund policy for reservations - the airlines can do it, and many hotels, why not campgrounds?

How about a compromise to help out folks with legitimate reasons? If you have a reservation somewhere that you keep, no refund for all of the rest that you cancel. So if you only have one reservation in the first place and cancel it, you only pay the fee. Or if you only cancel some percentage of the days (like 1/4) on your reservation you only pay the fee. The last one would stop the 2-weekend bookers who book 10 days just to get one weekend.

Also don't allow refundable cancelations all the way up until the last minute to allow time for others to book the spot. Cut off all refunds a few weeks out.

Where would you draw the line on legitimate reasons and who is going to be the judge? I can say my mother in law died hundreds of times. Same with I had mechanical problems, got called to jury duty, dog ate my homework and on and on. How would you know if someone kept a reservation somewhere else? There is no way anything can be verified. Either you have a refund policy or you don't. Creating one with all sorts of loopholes, exceptions and gray areas means you don't have a policy.

[wnjj]

GordonThree wrote:

Robin1953 wrote:

RRinNFla wrote:
I don't think Michigan's system would stop this practice. These folks make four separate reservations, then cancel the ones they don't want at the last minute. They do pay up front, but if they cancel they get all but 17.50 refunded.

I suspect that if they got zero refunds you would see a lot less of this. Losing $500 (hypothetically) as opposed to $17.50 would be a great deterrent. If a cancellation costs minimal dollars I suspect the practice will continue.

Sounds fair to me... zero refund policy for reservations - the airlines can do it, and many hotels, why not campgrounds?

How about a compromise to help out folks with legitimate reasons? If you have a reservation somewhere that you keep, no refund for all of the rest that you cancel. So if you only have one reservation in the first place and cancel it, you only pay the fee. Or if you only cancel some percentage of the days (like 1/4) on your reservation you only pay the fee. The last one would stop the 2-weekend bookers who book 10 days just to get one weekend.

Also don't allow refundable cancelations all the way up until the last minute to allow time for others to book the spot. Cut off all refunds a few weeks out.

[RRinNFla]

Hanna Park, a Jacksonville city park, does not give refunds, but allows you to change your date if your plans change. The official policy is that you can only change once, but they don't enforce that. Probably because their system doesn't track how many changes you make.

[wnjj]

GordonThree wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:
The simple no-cost solution to this pretty simple problem is to not allow more than TWO reservations by a HOUSEHOLD at any one time.

Then as many states do, insist the site is occupied on the first day of the reservation before midnight.

How do they confirm a household? For state parks in michigan all I need is a new email address and I can create as many households as I want. I doubt they even bother to cross check mailing address or vehicle license plate numbers. I know I'm in the system twice, once because I created my own account online and again because their call center created a new account for me with a misspelled name.

Now if the reservations required official ID, and that ID holder had to claim the reservation in person - maybe that would cut down on the abuse...?

My extended family loves to camp together and need 4 or 5 sites. Usually one person books them all so they're together (though names need to be provided for each). So long as the "household" limit doesn't mean each household has to book, it could work. Now verifying is another story...

[GordonThree]

Robin1953 wrote:

RRinNFla wrote:
I don't think Michigan's system would stop this practice. These folks make four separate reservations, then cancel the ones they don't want at the last minute. They do pay up front, but if they cancel they get all but 17.50 refunded.

I suspect that if they got zero refunds you would see a lot less of this. Losing $500 (hypothetically) as opposed to $17.50 would be a great deterrent. If a cancellation costs minimal dollars I suspect the practice will continue.

Sounds fair to me... zero refund policy for reservations - the airlines can do it, and many hotels, why not campgrounds?

[wbwood]

Beaker wrote:

My gripe: what about those of us who can't make plans 11 months in advance or don't feel like we have and extra $50 to throw away. I thought that part of the idea of the park system was to make sure that these lovely places were not reserved solely for the wealthy.

Am I being unreasonable?

Is there a better way?

South Carolina requires payment in full at reservation time.
Maybe this would stop it.

Not necessarily....you will get all your money back minus the reservation fee if you cancel in ample time.

[rk911]

RRinNFla wrote:
Recently, there was a post in another forum where the OP questioned the honesty of campground operators who swore he was getting the last site, only to find the CG half empty when he arrived.

This got me thinking about something that happens at Florida state parks, and I would imagine is a problem in other places as well. There have been many times when I have reserved one of the last available sites at a SP CG, but noticed many empty sites once I arrived.

Earlier this week, DW and I were camping at Tomoka SP, and our travels took us near Gamble Rogers in Flagler Beach, FL. We had heard this was a great spot and decided we wanted to take a look at the CG. The current CG has 34 spaces, literally on the oceanfront. We parked, walked past the sign that said "Registered Campers Only" and were looking at the various rigs and campsites, when a ranger asked us if we had obtained walk-through passes. (I had never heard of this, and it has been a long time since I was scolded by a ranger) Anyway, this led to a conversation about how popular this CG has become. There were several empty sites, but the ranger insisted they were fully booked.

This is how the ranger explained this phenomenon to me. When the reservation window opens up 11 months in advance. Some RVers will reserve every weekend in a given month, or the entire month, not knowing exactly when they will be able to travel. When their travel date gets closer they simply cancel the dates they don't want and pay a $17.50 cancellation fee for each cancellation.

So here is the math. The guy (who probably owns a $250K DP) reserves a large site every weekend for June committing $204 in reservation fees ($28/night times 8). When he cancels the other weekends he ends up spending $56 for one weekend, plus $52.50 in cancellation fees. So what does he get for $108.50, his choice of weekends, in season, at a campsite just steps from the Atlantic Ocean. Meanwhile the sites were unavailable for reservations by others.

My gripe: what about those of us who can't make plans 11 months in advance or don't feel like we have and extra $50 to throw away. I thought that part of the idea of the park system was to make sure that these lovely places were not reserved solely for the wealthy.

Am I being unreasonable?

Is there a better way?

no and yes. limit reservations to no more than 1 per 30-day period and that can be made no more than 14-days prior to scheduled arrival. if the reservation is canceled within 3-days of arrival then assess a full day's camping fee as a penalty and lock the person out of the reservation system for 30-days. the unused sites would then be open to reservation or first come/first serve.

sure, stuff happens that sometimes screws up our plans at the last minute...been there, done that, got the t-shirt. but to simply reserve a spot for every weekend and then not show up is arrogant, selfish and rude.

[Robin1953]

RRinNFla wrote:
I don't think Michigan's system would stop this practice. These folks make four separate reservations, then cancel the ones they don't want at the last minute. They do pay up front, but if they cancel they get all but 17.50 refunded.

I suspect that if they got zero refunds you would see a lot less of this. Losing $500 (hypothetically) as opposed to $17.50 would be a great deterrent. If a cancellation costs minimal dollars I suspect the practice will continue.

[westernrvparkow]

RRinNFla wrote:

majorgator wrote:
I've heard of people reserving MANY rooms at the hotels over a 2 month weekend, then brokering them out for higher fees. Now there IS something to say about that crap...

In the sports world that would be called scalping, and that is illegal almost everywhere.

Again, this practice is legal, but IMHO, it is still rude because of the attitude that I am going to get what I want, and if it has a negative impact on others, that's just too bad.

Scalping is actually legal in most states. It may be illegal to scalp them outside the venue, but all you need to do is go to any number of ticket resale sites on the internet to have the opportunity to pay more than face value for almost any sporting or concert event.

[Deb_and_Ed_M]

RRinNFla wrote:
I don't think Michigan's system would stop this practice. These folks make four separate reservations, then cancel the ones they don't want at the last minute. They do pay up front, but if they cancel they get all but 17.50 refunded.

OK - now I understand! And again, that explains the availability of sites if you check close to the date of your intended stay?

[GordonThree]

4X4Dodger wrote:
The simple no-cost solution to this pretty simple problem is to not allow more than TWO reservations by a HOUSEHOLD at any one time.

Then as many states do, insist the site is occupied on the first day of the reservation before midnight.

How do they confirm a household? For state parks in michigan all I need is a new email address and I can create as many households as I want. I doubt they even bother to cross check mailing address or vehicle license plate numbers. I know I'm in the system twice, once because I created my own account online and again because their call center created a new account for me with a misspelled name.

Now if the reservations required official ID, and that ID holder had to claim the reservation in person - maybe that would cut down on the abuse...?