Correct Completion of Form 8840 Substantial Presence Test

[FULLTIMEWANABE]

Being Canadian we have ascertained that because hubby has spent 186 days based on the 2014, 2013, 2012 formula we need to complete one of these forms, and submit before mid June. However we are not clear on certain lines of how much info we should include. If those in a similar position could comment I would really appreciate it. Just have the little guy on the shoulder that says "never volunteer any more information than they ask for, just answer honestly", but equally don't want to with-hold anything that they deem we should have disclosed and risk inadvertently causing ourselves, fines, problems or investigations further down the road.

My personal days are far less than the 183 stated but because he has to complete, is it worth me also doing so, as the intention is for us to spend more and more time together travelling now each year going forwards? As I said "the intention" is there! Also bearing in mind the fact we own property in the USA, should I just complete one anyway albeit I don't meet anywhere near the number of days stated.

We have our principal residence in Alberta Canada, File our taxes etc there annually, all business is conducted there, all vehicles registered there, primary health care, etc however, there appears to be some anomalies on some of the lines.

Line 14 is easy = principal residence Alberta Canada, but line 15 uses the words "permanent and available to you at all times throughout 2014" residence. We also own a home in Florida, we don't rent it out or generate any form of income from it, used for personal vacation use, so do we state that there or is that not classified as "permanent" in their eyes, and it most certainly is not available to us throughout the whole year, as we are limited to not being in the USA for more than 183 days in any one year. Not sure whether we need to disclose this property there or not as the wording kind of contradicts itself to me with regards to the fact that we are limited on how much time we can use it as per US immigration.

Line 20a,b,c,d. Routine Personal Banking Activities Location. Whilst we do have a Bank of America Account, apart from an occasional use of a withdrawal of cash, paying Fla property taxes, or for paying one monthly utility bill that won't accept payment from our Canadian Bank account, all our banking business is done through our Canadian Bank Account and Visa (mainly visa to get travel points).

We have a numbered Alberta company that we trade funds from on the markets, US and Canadian margin accounts but through a Canadian broker. In the instructions it states:

Line 29
For stocks and bonds, indicate the country of origin of the stock company or debtor. For example, if you own shares of a U.S. publicly traded corporation, the investment is considered located in the United States, even though the shares of stock are stored in a safe deposit box in a foreign country.

Technically hubby and I don't own these USA stocks as they are held by the Alberta numbered company, and our personal investments are in Canadian only based instruments to the best of our knowledge. Again, we are not sure what we should be doing here for sure, but assume nothing as we don't "personally" own any US stocks at this juncture but that may change in the future as our circumstances change as we become chronologically more challenged over time. When the company sells or shorts a USA trading stock we are charged a few cents by US irrespective of the fact that it is done in Canada.

Thanks for the feedback from you all that this effects or those with the IRS knowledge, it's wonderful to hear your interpretations. From a purely curious point of view it'd be most interesting to know how many Canadians that spend in the USA, more than the 183 day limit totalled over the 3 previous years formula do actually complete this 8840 form. I believe the penalty to be up to $1,000 for not doing so if I've read correctly.

Thanks again for your input.

[FULLTIMEWANABE]

Thanks Mamagoose for sharing anything else you become aware of from others. On RE in USA we are in the same boat as you. I know for sure in the past with different forms, folks have been told don't volunteer more than you need to, or you'll open up a whole can of worms unnecessarily and it'll drive you insane with all the extra info and forms you'll have to complete.

Also "interpretation" is the main thing. As I mention there is a conflict on interpretation so ........

It's the wording at the end where we have to sign, referencing "perjury" that has me concerned about how this should best be completed (LOL).

Thanks to all in anticipation.

[MamaGoose]

We'll be filling out our 8840's for the first time for 2014 as well. I found this blog with some good information. You can post questions there and a Canadian accountant will answer your questions. The whole comments section has become a long read but I think it's worth it.

http://www.mnp.ca/en/media-centre/blog/2011/2/1/canadians-wintering-in-the-us

My personal days are far less than the 183 stated but because he has to complete, is it worth me also doing so, as the intention is for us to spend more and more time together travelling now each year going forwards? As I said "the intention" is there! Also bearing in mind the fact we own property in the USA, should I just complete one anyway albeit I don't meet anywhere near the number of days stated

The way I understand it is that at this point, you don't have to fill one out. It's optional.

Line 14 is easy = principal residence Alberta Canada, but line 15 uses the words "permanent and available to you at all times throughout 2014" residence. We also own a home in Florida, we don't rent it out or generate any form of income from it, used for personal vacation use, so do we state that there or is that not classified as "permanent" in their eyes, and it most certainly is not available to us throughout the whole year, as we are limited to not being in the USA for more than 183 days in any one year. Not sure whether we need to disclose this property there or not as the wording kind of contradicts itself to me with regards to the fact that we are limited on how much time we can use it as per US immigration.

In answer to a question one reader had about owning property in Florida, the accountant at the link I provided says: "I would answer "Canada" to question 14 as Canada provided that Canada is your regular or principal permanent home. I would answer "Canada - principal permanent home" and "Florida - vacation property" to question 15."

Line 20a,b,c,d. Routine Personal Banking Activities Location. Whilst we do have a Bank of America Account, apart from an occasional use of a withdrawal of cash, paying Fla property taxes, or for paying one monthly utility bill that won't accept payment from our Canadian Bank account, all our banking business is done through our Canadian Bank Account and Visa (mainly visa to get travel points).

In answer to someone's question about that, the accountant from the link I posted said: "I would list both Canada and the U.S. as locations for the banks with which you conduct routine personal banking activities, as payment of vacation property and personal expenses in the U.S. likely would be considered routine banking activities. You only have to provide the country name for the location."

That's about as much as I zeroed in on when I read that website because they were questions I also had.

I'm wondering how exactly to answer lines 16 and 17. My "family"...our son resides in Canada, my spouse is with me in Canada and the U.S. Maybe if we write that...? Same with an automobile. It's in Canada or the U.S., wherever we happen to be. I guess some Canadians might leave a vehicle here, but we don't.

Line 19, we do have personal belongings and furniture both in Canada and in our "vacation" home in the U.S.

We do know other Canadians who have been filling out these forms for a long time now, so I think we'll be talking to them before we send ours in. If I find out any words of wisdom from these veteran snowbirds, I'll post it here.