I'm actually in favor of high cancelation fees....

[kfp673]

Maybe that's not the answer, but maybe it will help at least a little... Sorry for this upcoming rant, but I have a state park rant I must make to get off my chest 😉

I've been tent and RV camping in state parks my whole life. Most here in PA but also surrounding states. Now that I have a 5 person family, state parks are the perfect balance of what I want (boondocking) and what the kids want (hookups and things to do), but getting a site with at least electric has become near impossible at most of our favorite parks without months and even a year in advance planning. My wife and I both work and we have 3 kids in sports and activities. Trying to plan long weekends a year in advance is not possible. Our full week vacations we rarely plan that far out let alone the weekend trips.

Anyway, my gripe is the games people play with booking. Here in PA, you can book 11 months to the day in advance and book up to 14 consecutive nights. What that causes people to do is book 11 extra days with their last day on a Sunday when they only intend to stay for the weekend / long weekend. Because the cancelation fee is only $10 they just wait the 30 day waiting period (or longer) and cancel the days they don't want. They also book multiple long weekends without knowing if they can make it and cancel when it gets closer, again it's only $10. So people like me that are looking too book 30-60 days out have to sit on the computer multiple times per day just hoping to get lucky. I would love it if they did what our PA state forrest does with Boondock permits and have a 30-90 day window (depending on the area), but I know people need more time to plan. So, I would be in full support of a 1/2 or even more loss for cancelation. Of course as always that means people with money can still play the game and others can't (like many things in life), but maybe it would discourage the "games". Another idea would be to make a new rule where EVERY day you plan to book must be at least 11 months out. So you now can't book until 11 months from the last day of your trip rather than your first.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. It has been getting harder every year but the past 2 years has been terrible. There are a few parks that we used to camp at least once every year that we have not visited in 3-4 years now simply because we can't get a site.

Anyway, back to your regularly schedule programs....

[hotbyte]

It might be difficult to implement, but I really like the idea of a suspension period for those that habitually cancel reservations.

[toedtoes]

wapiticountry wrote:
Full payment at time of reservation. Cancellation fee equal to one night's stay. No refund if cancelled less than 30 days prior to arrival date. No refund for shortening stay. Must arrive on 1st day of reservation or reservation is cancelled and site made available to others. Only exception to policy is if the guest contacts the reservation office prior to arrival and moves arrival date back. They will get no refund for the day(s) they cancel but the remaining reservation will remain in place. This will accommodate people who have travel issues on the road.

A one night's fee cancellation fee may only be $20.

There are some areas where folks will book every weekend for the season as soon as the window opens. Then as they get closer to the dates, they cancell what they don't want. A $20 cancellation fee won't bother them.

[wapiticountry]

Full payment at time of reservation. Cancellation fee equal to one night's stay. No refund if cancelled less than 30 days prior to arrival date. No refund for shortening stay. Must arrive on 1st day of reservation or reservation is cancelled and site made available to others. Only exception to policy is if the guest contacts the reservation office prior to arrival and moves arrival date back. They will get no refund for the day(s) they cancel but the remaining reservation will remain in place. This will accommodate people who have travel issues on the road.

[austinjenna]

As long as you can just re-reserve immediately, you'll still have scammers.

Say I book for August 1-15 on Feb 1st to get past the 6 month out policy. Then in June, I cancel August 1-15 and then immediately reserve August 10-15.

It results in the same thing as if I just cancelled the August 1-9 portion.

You would need to establish some sort of time delay on the rebooking of that site by the cancellee.

That's how it works in Ohio, there is a delay before it gets posted as available. Also on their website if no sites are available they have a button where you can put in your email if anything becomes available, so that gets sent out to however many folks who wanted to be notified of an available site.

So you could possibly rebook the same site and you could also get beat out as well.

[FWC]

I would strongly support a significant 'no-show' fee for public lands camping and other reservations (like backcountry and river permits).

When you reserve a campsite or backcountry permit, in addition to the camping/permit fee (which should remain low so as not to be a barrier to entry) you also authorize a much larger no-show fee. If you cancel the reservation more than a few days in advance, you still loose the permit fee, but they don't charge the no-show fee as the permit/site can be used by someone else. However, if you don't show up and haven't canceled a few days before, then you loose the permit fee and they charge the larger no-show fee.

I think it is important to keep the fees to use public lands low enough that they are not a realistic barrier to entry, but I am so tired of folks who reserve a $25 permit or a $50 camp site in February and then can't be bothered to cancel it later when it turns out they can't use it in August. In some cases, such as Rocky Mountain National Park, 30-40% of the back country campsites end up not being used on popular weekends because of this.

Make the no show fee $250, and then there is a motivation to be considerate about those permits booked months in advance.

[garyp4951]

I agree Rec.gov could use some rule changes.

[toedtoes]

As long as you can just re-reserve immediately, you'll still have scammers.

Say I book for August 1-15 on Feb 1st to get past the 6 month out policy. Then in June, I cancel August 1-15 and then immediately reserve August 10-15.

It results in the same thing as if I just cancelled the August 1-9 portion.

You would need to establish some sort of time delay on the rebooking of that site by the cancellee.

[monkey44]

Wonder why it is that RVnet campers can figure out a solution, but campgrounds cannot.

That solution above will work wonders - cancel all days, or no days. If you cancel all days xxxx number of days or weeks ahead, you get a refund. If not, no refund. That will work very well until the cheaters figure out a way to cheat that too.

[Lantley]

austinjenna wrote:
In the Ohio state parks you cant do that scam anymore since they caught on. You cannot cancel part of your reservation its either all or nothing.

That^^^ is probably a simple way to close the loophole.
If you truly need to cancel than you have no choice and you will understand the policy.
If you are taking advantage of the system then that loophole has been closed

[DrewE]

Tvov wrote:
Why have "cancellation fees"? Why not just pay for what you've reserved?

If you can't make it, then you can't make it. Why should a business (or state park) give you the campground fee back?

I suspect the main reason is that, without any refund for cancellation, people who cannot make their reservation for whatever reason just won't show up without calling the park or anything, and there's no possible way for their site to be used by someone else. If they do cancel, the campground may be able to find someone to actually use the site.

I guess for a commercial campground, if people are willing to pay for and not use your facilities, that's more profit than if they pay for and use them. For a public park, however, there's usually some understanding if not actual verbiage in their mission or charter that they are there to provide public access to nature and recreation, so enabling as many people as practical to use the facilities is part of the expectation.

[austinjenna]

In the Ohio state parks you cant do that scam anymore since they caught on. You cannot cancel part of your reservation its either all or nothing.

[wowens79]

I miss the days of a spur of the moment weekend trip being an easy thing to do. I've had pretty good luck finding cancelations, but I hate the uncertainty.

Should they put in something like if you cancel 3 times in 12 months, you can't make another reservation of 6 months? I hate to say it, but I'm not sure if the financial penalty would bother that many people.

[phillyg]

I get frustrated, too. I can't begin to tell how many sites I see vacant in FL state and local parks for days at a time, and yet its difficult to reserve sites. Perhaps someone smarter than me can find a solution.

[Thom02099]

I have accepted that "gaming" the system is not going away regardless of penalties imposed. There will always be someone who does not care about the impact of their gaming the system and reserving blocks that they know they will not use.

It helps level the playing field some to know when the reservation window(s) open on the various reservation systems. Recreation.gov system for USFS and National Parks (for the ones locally that I want to reserve), the window opens 180 days prior to the date one wants, at 10am Eastern time/8am in Mountain time. For ReserveAmerica.com, the system for all Colorado State Parks, the window is also 180 days, but the time is at the stroke of midnight on that 180th day for Mountain time. I had to look through all of the fine print at the CPW website to find that information; I had wondered about that, thinking that it was also 8am mountain time for Colorado State Parks. Couldn't figure out why I wasn't able to reserve spots at the stroke of 8am when I should have stayed up and done it at the stroke of midnight.

Not going to solve the core problem of this discussion topic, but does give a bit of advantage in knowing and using the exact times that the scammers are using.

[Tvov]

Why have "cancellation fees"? Why not just pay for what you've reserved?

If you can't make it, then you can't make it. Why should a business (or state park) give you the campground fee back?