Water Filter Advise

[1Longbow]

The wife thinks she need and under the counter,canister type water filter. We use the camper 10 to 12 times a years ,with some full hook ups ,but mostly dry camping. I feel that if you are'nt using the water enough(down time),that you are just creating a place for bacteria to grow ,as the water just sits there in the canister. What say you experts on the subject. Thank you for your time

[nickyy99]

Hi,
There are different types of water filtration systems from on-the-tap faucet filtration systems dispensers and pitchers using carbon filters, to those using reverse osmosis technique.
WATER FILTER REVIEWS AND INFORMATION

[myredracer]

JBarca wrote:
Curious to know if you ever find out what it is.

No clue. I was hoping the guy at the testing lab would have had some solid ideas by looking at it. It does not look any sediment or particulate because the material has overgrown the S/S mesh on both sides equally.

If it's from the CG I think it was, the electrical system was old and in pretty sad shape. If the water system is as bad there, I can see something obnoxious being in the water. I recall the riser pipes to the faucets being iron pipe and if heavily corroded inside, that could explain it. Maybe 40-50 years ago when the place was built, they used iron pipe for distribution around the CG? Add to that poor or no chlorination, and it's a recipe for iron bacteria from what I've read. That stuff is apparently not easy to eradicate either. I guess it could possibly be inside your RV and the only way to get rid of it I believe is with chlorine.

One person I talked to suggested that the water cavitates at the water inlet because of the check valve and restriction and something in suspension can drop out. But then, the strainer on the hose at the CG faucet is 100% clean and I have an inline regulator there.

I'm going to try the test suggested by westend. It may very well be iron bacteria.

It would be nice to know what it is. I'd hate to have a filter plugged up or infested with whatever it is. If it is indeed iron bacteria, what should one do if you're at an older CG where the water system looks suspect? Does it perhaps happen more often than you might think? Going by this following link, you can't just install a simple filter to keep it out.iron & iron bacteria info. It says the bacteria can clog pipes and valves.

Some more info.: iron bacteria Says the bacteria can clog screens.

Geez, do I now need to look at a chlorine injection system? 😞

[westend]

Red, take your strainer and put it in a small bowl of vinegar. You can even add a small dose of salt. If it dissolves all of the rust colored material off the metal screen and there is no residue in the bowl, what you have is iron particulate. Iron bacteria, when it dies and aggregates is black. I would guess that you ran into a water system that is high in iron. That could be from the ground or even in the plumbing if steel pipe is used.

[etothepii]

I don't see if this was asked here or not yet ...

Can you boil any of the the filter elements between uses without destroying them?

[JBarca]

Curious to know if you ever find out what it is.

[myredracer]

I took the filter screen in my photo above to a water testing lab today and talked to the manager. He could not tell what it was by looking at it and said of the few things it *could* possibly be is iron bacteria (not harmful to humans) or algae and the only way to know is by lab testing. Problem is, it needs to be fresh and still wet with the bacteria still in it. I took a few sampling bottles with me and will keep on eye on it this coming season and see if it shows up at any particular CG then I will take a sample into the lab by the next day. It would be interesting to know if it's coming from the CG we regularly use. The lab manager said if I can figure out which CG it's coming from to notify them so they can do something about it because it definitely shouldn't be like that.

[JBarca]

Trlrboy wrote:
Take a look at my signature photolink and you will see an album of my water filter install. Took about an hour. First filter is 1 micron and the 2nd one is a carbon block. Zero taste at all, zero smell. Great products from the RV water filter store.

Hi Trlrboy,

Nice looking camp pictures you have! Thanks for sharing. Nice looking camper/truck too. I did get down to your water filter install. The 2 stage unit looks good and out in the open where you can service it.

The 1 micron 1st stage filter sounds small but maybe as I do use a 0.9 micron when the conditions allow. Do you by chance know which part number elements they gave you to use? Curious to look them up.

Thanks

John

[JBarca]

Hi Red,

myredracer wrote:
It's interesting that the deposits are only on the 2nd strainer. Perhaps the screens are different metal? No odor but then it's been a few months now. I wonder if it's iron bacteria or something that feeds on iron? If it is iron bacteria, it's not a health risk at least. I wonder if it can be analyzed at a water testing lab?

Iron bacteria

I myself do not have experience on iron bacteria so don't know exactly. The screen washer you are showing looks like the standard stainless washer. While stainless can rot/corrode given the right conditions, I'm suspecting the screen itself is not rusting. It is more "something" on the screen. And yes, the right lab can test what it is.

That article on Legionnaires disease is definitely interesting and food for thought. It sounds like what you are saying is that it would be prudent for RV-ers in hotter areas of the US to regularly treat their holding tanks. When reading up on it a bit I learned that the Legionella bacteria is naturally occuring in some lakes and rivers and apparently even in potting soil. So I guess some folks *could* end up with the bacteria in their holding tanks and all you need is the right conditions for it too flourish?

Hotter climates have worse conditions then the more northern climates for elevated temperatures to grow out an infection, however climates that are damp a lot have other bad traits of mold. A good sound water program with routine system sanitize should occur regardless, however be more in-tune with the area you are camping in. Even here in the mid-west Ohio, inside the camper can hit 100F plus during a hot summer day in the sun.

The biggest thing is just realizing what can happen and what not to do. And practice good camper water management and the odds are then in your favor to not have a problem.

John

[Trlrboy]

Take a look at my signature photolink and you will see an album of my water filter install. Took about an hour. First filter is 1 micron and the 2nd one is a carbon block. Zero taste at all, zero smell. Great products from the RV water filter store.

[myredracer]

JBarca wrote:


That said, were you camping in an area that was high in iron? This is total speculation but there may be “something” stuck to the screen and then a high iron source came through and attached to the stuck something. Does it smell like iron or foul something? This one I do not know. I would for sure do a good sanitize of the camper come spring when you start using it again.

John

More interesting info. thank you. This is all a lot to digest and mull over and I'm going to print out this thread and some of the info. in the links to study. You could be correct about the filter I bought clogging up too quickly. A sediment pre-filter might be a good idea.

We normally weekend regularly in the same CG in Birch Bay, Wa. I am pretty certain that they are on a local municipal water system and we have not had any problems there. We spent 2 weeks on the west coast of Washington state last summer. I would have to guess that their water supply is either by an on-site well or maybe a community well(s) and if there was anywhere that the iron was high, I would say it was there. The CG had a swamp/wetland in it too. It's interesting that the deposits are only on the 2nd strainer. Perhaps the screens are different metal? No odor but then it's been a few months now. I wonder if it's iron bacteria or something that feeds on iron? If it is iron bacteria, it's not a health risk at least. I wonder if it can be analyzed at a water testing lab?

Iron bacteria

Our new 2014 KZ TT will be here very shortly (depending on the crappy weather in the east) and the old one is going back to the dealer so we won't have to do anything with the old system. 🙂

That article on Legionnaires disease is definitely interesting and food for thought. It sounds like what you are saying is that it would be prudent for RV-ers in hotter areas of the US to regularly treat their holding tanks. When reading up on it a bit I learned that the Legionella bacteria is naturally occuring in some lakes and rivers and apparently even in potting soil. So I guess some folks *could* end up with the bacteria in their holding tanks and all you need is the right conditions for it too flourish?

[JBarca]

Hi Gil,

I’ll comment on some of your thoughts in an attempt to help as you work your way through this.

myredracer wrote:
I had no idea what the effect of a carbon block filter can be from chlorine reduction on the downstream water. I am going to go back to the drawing board on the "whole house" filter I bought, a Pentek Floplus-10. I chose it because it's 0.5 microns, is designed for a high flow rate and it combines carbon, sediment and micro-organism filtering all in one. While it does have a polypropylene media, it does not have KDF or silver in it. I just looked at the fine print that I didn't see before and it says "Warning: For drinking water applications, do not use with water that is microbiologically unsafe or of unknown quality without adequate disinfection before or after the system." It sounds like if you are not using water from a treated municipal system and the water quality is unknown, this filter is not a good choice.

I found this cut sheet on the Pentek Floplus-10. Strange I could not readily find it on the Pentair Water web site, but found their tech sheet on a retailers web site http://www.allfilters.com/files/pentek-floplus.pdf

If you are going to use this as an entire camper filter, you may find if you put a sediment filter upstream from it may help. It all depends on the water source, however a 50, 20 or 10 micron may help as a pre-filter to help slow down clogging of the main filter. I suspect you will find going with a straight 0.5 micron filter as the primary unit may give very slow flow after a short while. While the pressure drop may be better than a comparable 0.5 micron unit you may experience ~ 30 minutes to fill the fresh tank. If you are hooked to city water, then it may not be “as” noticeable. Many RV faucets have small restrictors in them to about 3 gpm at full flow. According to the Flotech-10 chart, with a new filter, there is 2 psi/1 gpm. Or 6 psi loss when the main sink or shower is running wide open on a new clean filer. That pressure drop will increase as the unit becomes more clogged.

Their warning sticker I’m assuming comes for a general caution to only use this filter on known potable water and that has something chlorinated downstream. If a high bio load comes into the unit that was not from a potable source, given the right conditions that may grow out of control as the carbon unit does not contain a bacteria static agent.

In a house system on chlorinated city water this is generally not a concern. However on a RV, it will reduce the chlorine downstream by a good amount and our campers can get real hot inside when stored during the summer out in the sun. So that is something to think through. If you use this filter, you would fall into the group of folks who some put them in the freezer between trips. As I said before, I have no experience in doing that and cannot comment on how effective it is.

I grew up on chlorinated city water. After being on well water for 20+ years, when we go anywhere that has chlorine in the water, it seems almost overpowering at first. We don't find it offensive enough though to make a carbon filter a must. It seems like the carbon particles aren't just there for the chlorine though.

Yes, you are correct, the carbon takes out things other than chlorine.

I still want a decent flow rate filter with a lower micron rating and with KDF or silver to prevent bacterial growth. I was looking at a 10" Pentek whole house filter that has KDF in it but it is 4.5" in dia. and retails for $80, so that's not an option. Perhaps two filters would be a good choice - a main whole house one and a separate one under the kitchen sink just for drinking water? I drink a lot of water straight out of the tap. In reading your links on KDF and Silver, it seems like KDF would be a good choice. I don't know what that does to cost or dimensions.

Yes, KDF is the newer method. When I have broken the top off of one of ceramic carbon filters I can see the KDF mixed in with the granulated carbon. It looks like the granulated KDF right off the KDF web site I linked you too. From my background, I would recommend the KDF or silver when using a carbon filter.

Yes, if you use a fine sediment filter on the incoming city water this lets the chlorine come through. The pleated filter I linked Fisherguy is a washable one. As we know, only use sources you know are potable. At the sink, then go with a fine micron carbon filter as a point of use filter to reduce out the chlorine and other things carbon tanks out. Again a filter with KDF or Silver in it and work through how to drain it and dry it out when not in use. Mount it in an easy access area. Naturally this all comes with 1 or 2 system sanitizes per year pending use of the system and good water practices.

Here is a photo of the strainer out of the water inlet fitting on the exterior of our TT. This is how it looked 2 months after winterizing at the end of the season. It looks to be about 50% or more covered in something. Interestingly, the strainer at the end of the hose at the CG faucet is perfectly clear. I always check the one at the faucet end but never thought to look at the one on the inlet. I have no idea what the material on the strainer could be. Algae? I don't exactly relish the thought of ingesting the stuff whatever it is. Could the stuff also be somewhere in the water dist. system inside our TT?

I myself have not seen rust colored algae. The types I have seen are a variety of green. Even when I find a bio mass in our machines that goo is more milky colored. And our bacteria “goo”, may be from the types of bacteria we have feeding on the proteins and fats in the products we make.

That said, were you camping in an area that was high in iron? This is total speculation but there may be “something” stuck to the screen and then a high iron source came through and attached to the stuck something. Does it smell like iron or foul something? This one I do not know. I would for sure do a good sanitize of the camper come spring when you start using it again.

Related to this thread, I came across the below article recently on Legionnaires disease in RVs. When I looked into to it, it seemed highly improbable that this would be a concern in RV systems because it normally occurs in highly complex water systems such as in large buildings; in systems with lime scale, sludge & rust buildup; and in holding tanks where there are elevated temps (68F and higher) for long periods. And then you need to inhale the infected water, not drink it. Not really conditions present in an RV.

The article cites a case of an RV-er that contracted the disease but was already in a higher risk category to start with and it doesn't include any evidence on exactly how and where he might have contracted it. If it was a problem in RVs, I have to think you'd hear a lot more about it. In reading through the article, it doesn't seem particularly credible the way it was written.

Legionnaires disease in RVs

Thanks for the link. Interesting to read. I am not really up on that disease, however the study did site this in their investigation.

3.2.2. Demographics

All of the RVs in the study were registered in southern states including: TX, GA, FL, SC, VA, and NC except for one registered in the state of OH. The four RVs culture-positive for Legionellae were registered in different states, GA, SC, TX, and TN (Table 1). The average model year of all the RVs included in the study was 1997 and the average model year of all of the four positive RVs was also 1997. No specific make or model was associated with a positive Legionella culture.
3.2.3. Maintenance

Fifty percent of all the RVs surveyed had RV general maintenance performed within the last year with 60% of RVs having the water tank cleaned within the last year. Only one reported cleaning the water tank with chlorine. Others reported draining and or flushing as the cleaning procedure.

Forty-five percent of all the RVs would have the water tank drained when the RV was put in storage. However, only one of the RV owners treated the RV tank with chlorine before putting the water tank back into use.

A few points that stick out, southern US states, = hotter temps. When the temps are hotter, many bacteria thrive a lot better. Older campers, while they themselves are not a problem, regular chlorine shock sanitization was not done. This does not matter new or old, however if years have gone by with no sanitization, odds are not in ones favor in a real hot climate for not having an out of control situation.

You mentioned you had to inhale the water, this may be possible. This stuck out.

2. Case Report

A 50-year-old previously healthy man who smoked occasionally and drank moderately attended an antique car exhibition in rural Pennsylvania in the fall of 1993 with several other enthusiast friends. The group traveled by RV and lived in the vehicle for several days using water for drinking and bathing directly from the storage tank. The water supply was replenished when required by refilling the tank with local tap water from a municipal system.

If someone is showering in their camper with heavily infected water, odds are present you could inhale steam vapor or even mist while showering. This might be a path for an inhaled infection. And while they used chlorinated water to fill the tank, if the bioload in the system is high, there is not enough chlorine in potable water to knock it out. The free chlorine that is present gets consumed trying to burn off the infection until can’t any longer as it is all used up. If it never knocks out the source, it just keeps leaching out nonstop into the water in high temperature conditions.

Hope this helps

John

[myredracer]

JBarca wrote:

Red,
Here is what I know. If we happen to have a RV'er who is a water treatment person or a microbiologist they may add some more.
Hope this helps
John

Thanks for some more excellent info. This seems to be a whole new area of RV-ing that never occurred to me. I thought all you ever needed to do is hook up to city water and you are good. We are primarily weekend campers until DW retires so water may be in the system far a week or two or three between use. Have only had to use the holding tank once. We wouldn't drink the water on the rare occasion we need to use it.

I had no idea what the effect of a carbon block filter can be from chlorine reduction on the downstream water. I am going to go back to the drawing board on the "whole house" filter I bought, a Pentek Floplus-10. I chose it because it's 0.5 microns, is designed for a high flow rate and it combines carbon, sediment and micro-organism filtering all in one. While it does have a polypropylene media, it does not have KDF or silver in it. I just looked at the fine print that I didn't see before and it says "Warning: For drinking water applications, do not use with water that is microbiologically unsafe or of unknown quality without adequate disinfection before or after the system." It sounds like if you are not using water from a treated municipal system and the water quality is unknown, this filter is not a good choice.

I grew up on chlorinated city water. After being on well water for 20+ years, when we go anywhere that has chlorine in the water, it seems almost overpowering at first. We don't find it offensive enough though to make a carbon filter a must. It seems like the carbon particles aren't just there for the chlorine though.

I still want a decent flow rate filter with a lower micron rating and with KDF or silver to prevent bacterial growth. I was looking at a 10" Pentek whole house filter that has KDF in it but it is 4.5" in dia. and retails for $80, so that's not an option. Perhaps two filters would be a good choice - a main whole house one and a separate one under the kitchen sink just for drinking water? I drink a lot of water straight out of the tap.

In reading your links on KDF and Silver, it seems like KDF would be a good choice. I don't know what that does to cost or dimensions.

Here is a photo of the strainer out of the water inlet fitting on the exterior of our TT. This is how it looked 2 months after winterizing at the end of the season. It looks to be about 50% or more covered in something. Interestingly, the strainer at the end of the hose at the CG faucet is perfectly clear. I always check the one at the faucet end but never thought to look at the one on the inlet. I have no idea what the material on the strainer could be. Algae? I don't exactly relish the thought of ingesting the stuff whatever it is. Could the stuff also be somewhere in the water dist. system inside our TT?

Related to this thread, I came across the below article recently on Legionnaires disease in RVs. When I looked into to it, it seemed highly improbable that this would be a concern in RV systems because it normally occurs in highly complex water systems such as in large buildings; in systems with lime scale, sludge & rust buildup; and in holding tanks where there are elevated temps (68F and higher) for long periods. And then you need to inhale the infected water, not drink it. Not really conditions present in an RV. The article cites a case of an RV-er that contracted the disease but was already in a higher risk category to start with and it doesn't include any evidence on exactly how and where he might have contracted it. If it was a problem in RVs, I have to think you'd hear a lot more about it. In reading through the article, it doesn't seem particularly credible the way it was written.

Legionnaires disease in RVs

[JBarca]

myredracer wrote:
Jbarca, what's the story on filters that have silver or an anti-microbial agent in them to help kill bacteria and organisims? Is it correct that some filter media are more resistant to bacteria growth? I think I read that polypropylene is better in that respect and that paper is not good?

Should an RV filter be tossed out once a year regardless even if it's had low use?

Red,

Here is what I know. If we happen to have a RV'er who is a water treatment person or a microbiologist they may add some more.

Silver and KDF are used in carbon filters to create an environment where Bactria does not like to reproduce in. They call this bacteriostatic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteriostatic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_filter

http://www.bestek.net/silver.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kdf-55

http://www.kdfft.com/products.htm

That said, not all carbon filters have this feature of adding silver or KDF. Bacteria actually really like to grow in carbon filter beds. I have heard some RV'ers after a campout take their carbon filter that does not have silver or KDF in them , drain it and put the element in the freezer between camping trips to help keep the filter element from growing out of control. I have no background on this practice but understand they are using the low temperature to not allow the bacteria to reproduce. I myself would avoid using that type of filter on a camper if I was only weekend camping. Full timers that keep flushing it all the time are in a different set of conditions.

I too have heard the all plastic filters (polypropylene etc) are better over paper as the paper creates a bacteria problem. I "think" the issue is some papers being made from an organic substance creates a food source or a place that bacteria can harbor in the poris structure of paper. Plastics do not have these 2 issues. I am not 100% sure of the reason, however I believe these 2 areas are part of the problem.

How long should a filter be used? This partly depends on the type of filter and how it is used. 1 year of use regardless how many gallons have gone through it is a common recommendation that I have seen. Others are 3 months, my home fridge filter is 6 months. If the filter cannot be cleaned, then 1 year may be too long pending what it was subjected to. If the filter never had water in it, then I do not know of a shelf life that it cannot be used if it is a year old. Only if it has been in use. That said, my ceramic/carbon filter with KDF that are dried out and stored cool have gone over a year. I would not think of doing that on a carbon element with no KFD or silver in it.

The problem is there is no good way to know how much sediment or bacteria it was subjected to and how imbedded it is on non cleanable filters. And then there is materials of construction. Some filters may not hold up being wet that long.

If the manufacture states they have a 1 year in use life, then they have some kind of justification to base it on. And it may only be good practice so the filter does not fail in service not knowing how old it is.

Hope this helps

John

[JBarca]

myredracer wrote:
JBarca,

More good info. Seems like all of your info. would be good for a sticky...

Apologies for asking more questions... 🙂

Hi Red,

Ask away. Glad to help as I can. I do not know it all but will add what I know. Sorry this took so long.

1. What does a carbon block filter do to chlorine in your water after the filter? If I install a carbon block filter that filters the entire TT, is that possibly detrimental? It seems like some RV-ers use a carbon block filter. In our case, the water inlet is right below the kitchen sink (only a few feet of pipe) while the bathroom sink is 10'+ away but the only time you'd ingest water in the bathroom is a small amount when brushing your teeth.

Carbon filters tend to "reduce" chlorine and a good number of other bacteria, tastes etc. Notice I said "reduce". How much they reduce depends on how fine they are and what the chlorine ppm was when you started. Each time you fill up the camper, the source you are drawing from can have a different ppm of chlorine to start with. If it is 3 to 4ppm, a 0.9 micron carbon filter can reduce it pretty far. Maybe down to 1.0ppm. If you start with 1.5 ppm you may end up with almost nothing.

From my use/testing/background, yes, stripping out almost all chlorine in the camper is a concern. This is why I spike it back to levels that create a stable system again. You do not need much on a clean system to keep it clean. 0.5ppm free chlorine if you can hit it that close, is good. 0 ppm chlorine starts raising the risk. You may not have a problem right away, it will take some time to become a problem after an infection starts. The good part is, the carbon filter did strip out a lot, if not all of the food source so that can slow down reproduction. If it is cool out, the cooler temps help too. The concern is if the bacteria gets out of control and then you ingest them. The only way I know how to stay ahead of that is by a good water program of both filtering and then checking and adjusting chlorine as needed.

2. I noticed at the end of the last camping season (51 nights), that the little screen filters on the hose and water inlet were plugged up with some kind of crud. Not sure if it is sediment and/or algae. Any idea what it is and what the negatives are? Would it originate from a public system or private well system?

It is hard to say without seeing a pic of it or seeing it directly. By chance did you smell anything foul? Or was it slimy/gooey? Bacteria smell bad.. I'm mean really bad when they are alive and well. At least water borne varieties I have dealt with. Our micro lab managers says "follow your nose"... and it has truth to it. If the screen plugged from pipe rust, hard water calcium, dirt etc, those particles can clog but they do not stink.

3. Just how good is bulk filtered water that you buy at stores or bottled water compared to city water that you'd use at a CG? I seem to recall reading that it's not as good as they make it out to be. We get bulk water in 5 gal. bottles for DW as that's all she will drink. The bulk water comes out of the filling machine pretty quickly so I am guessing the level of filtration isn't that great? I'm pretty sure they are supplied by city water.

I'm not a bottle water expert however since it is sold as a public water source it should be potable. There are all kinds of bottled water. Some are made by taking standard city water and running it through a reverse osmosis (RO) system. And RO water really does not taste very good as it is so pure. If it is what they call 1st stage permeate, it is the cleanest and purist and many folks do not like water that pure as far as taste. By having some level of good minerals in it, it helps the taste. Some times on the back of the label they tell how it was made. As far as speed, that all depends on the size of the filter system. At work we can made 350gpm of RO water and we have multiple systems generating up to 1,000gpm. The little home RO systems are tiny and may only put out 1/2 gpm as a point of use system at the sink.

I've been drinking well water for about 20 years at home. One was 300' deep or so and artesian. Our current well is a recently built shallow one (30'). When you build a new house here in Canada that has a well, your municipality requires you to meet "Guidelines for Canadian Drinking Water Quality". Link below. I think some provinces have their own regs. for public and semi-public water distribution systems. For private homes at least, they don't require any on-going testing. If you construct or drill a new well, there's no testing requirements which seems odd.

In our state/county the Department of Environmental Conservation keeps track of all wells dug in the county/area going back a long time. And they have a copy of the well drillers report and if you call them, it is open the public. We are building a new home that we have to have a well on so I'm up on this local area. Once a well is drilled, we have to sanitize the well and home piping and do a water test that has to pass for our health dept. as part of the occupancy permit. So it needs to be clean at least once at the start. After that it is up to the home owner.

A 30 ft well, that can be a concern. A shift in water table due to a municipal reservoir etc can some times leave you on reduced water capacity. However we have several older country homes like this.

Our area is on lime stone which is good and our new well is estimated to be at about 150 feet. The neighbor next to us has 50 gpm...a t150 feet which is a boat load for a normal 3 bedroom house. In eastern OH that area is on a lot of shale and that is a higher concern for sulfur wells. They are going gang busters now with natural gas in that area.

John