Towing a TH / Truck choice

[lmcracing]

Hello!

I have some questions about towing these large toy haulers and truck choice. The TH category seems to have gotten super heavy and jumped to crazy lengths so I am trying to do my homework before purchasing. I see the towing topic alot on older threads but since my truck is newer I will ask it again and hopefully get some feedback.

This is my first post and first RV/TH purchase so forgive my ignorance on the topic, but it is also the reason I am here.

I am looking to purchase a new/newer toy hauler 5th wheel this year, my truck is a 2014 Ram 2500 Crew Cab Laramie 4x4 with the Cummins and an Auto. The dodge site says I can tow 17100 but I wanted to get input from others before jumping into something that size.

I am trying to keep the weight down due to the SRWs but I am also trying to get something with garage space for my toys (14'+). I attended the camping/RV show last week and found the new Carbon 387 which seemed to fit the bill and is much lighter than the competition (13287 dry weight and 19000 GVWR). I am not sure that I would ever reach that GVWR, not sure how I would.. My guess would be 15-16,000 loaded. Is this something I can safely do?? I know those weights are within my limits, but want input from those who have been there.

My truck is my daily driver and a dually is not a preferred option for my daily activities and parking restrictions. I do plan to add the Firestone airbags which will add some stability I assume but doesn't replace the stability of 4 rear tires... Adding another vehicle purchase also greatly reduces the wife approval factor.. haha!

Obviously safety is my paramount concern I am certain I will get some various opinions but I would rather ask than be "that guy" because the safety of others is also important to me. The only input thus far is from my original truck sales guy and salesmen at the RV dealer which all say "Oh yeah! That truck can do that easy!"

[dedmiston]

Enough.

[NC_Hauler]

kofire wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:

kofire wrote:
NC hauler. Ford ups their GCVWR with just a gear change. It's a 3k lb difference. No difference in frame, suspension or brakes. So I'm curious where you are getting your info.
I don't care about ford GVWR I care about what the manafacturer rates their axle capacity at. Which is close to 10k. Ford puts it around 67-7500 give or take depending on what block , leaf springs and tires they put on it.
People always say you can't change door sticker gvwr.....it's a legal number. Well first off NO it's not. What's to stop me from buying a f450 and putting f250 axles with SRWs under it because I like the way they look. Then what? My capacity doesn't change because of a door sticker? That makes no sense.

You're right....You've got all the answers..You're legal, you're safe, you know what you're doing..I'm wrong. You've done a most excellent job justifying what you are towing with what you're towing with...I wished I were an expert and not bought an overkill truck...probably could have gotten by with a 250/2500,,,just not go with manufacturer recommended ratings and put air bags on the truck..but I'm one of those old school stupid engineers that goes by specs..can't help myself...oh well, even at almost 66 yrs of age, I'm still learning ..

I don't think I have all the answers. I just try and be informed and base my decisions in logic. I am well aware of the limits of my equipment based on the people who it know best ( the manfacturer )
I genuinely am curious where you get your info from. Whenever I presented something that countered what you said based on FACT, I get this stupid response. I'm not an expert I'm just somebody who knows the actual law and the limitations set forth by the manafacturers of the equipment I use to tow.

As you so judgingly stated... Stupid response, so evidently, in your eyes, I'm stupid. I base most of everything I do on logic, and again, having been an Engineer for the last almost 41 years, I'm a spec man.. But nothing I can say will convince you of anything, thus the reason you got the reply from me that you did.. You are correct about gearing and GCWR... On that, I got ahead of myself.. But I don't purchase a truck, knowing I have to buy air bags to keep it level and knowing I'm going to exceed numbers that don't matter to you or a whole lot of other people.... It's the Engineer in me and having worked in manufacturing for 41 years.

To not see any of my stupid responses, use your block option to never see another post of mine....it's your friend (:

[kofire]

NC Hauler wrote:

kofire wrote:
NC hauler. Ford ups their GCVWR with just a gear change. It's a 3k lb difference. No difference in frame, suspension or brakes. So I'm curious where you are getting your info.
I don't care about ford GVWR I care about what the manafacturer rates their axle capacity at. Which is close to 10k. Ford puts it around 67-7500 give or take depending on what block , leaf springs and tires they put on it.
People always say you can't change door sticker gvwr.....it's a legal number. Well first off NO it's not. What's to stop me from buying a f450 and putting f250 axles with SRWs under it because I like the way they look. Then what? My capacity doesn't change because of a door sticker? That makes no sense.

You're right....You've got all the answers..You're legal, you're safe, you know what you're doing..I'm wrong. You've done a most excellent job justifying what you are towing with what you're towing with...I wished I were an expert and not bought an overkill truck...probably could have gotten by with a 250/2500,,,just not go with manufacturer recommended ratings and put air bags on the truck..but I'm one of those old school stupid engineers that goes by specs..can't help myself...oh well, even at almost 66 yrs of age, I'm still learning ..

I don't think I have all the answers. I just try and be informed and base my decisions in logic. I am well aware of the limits of my equipment based on the people who it know best ( the manfacturer )
I genuinely am curious where you get your info from. Whenever I presented something that countered what you said based on FACT, I get this stupid response. I'm not an expert I'm just somebody who knows the actual law and the limitations set forth by the manafacturers of the equipment I use to tow.

[NC_Hauler]

kofire wrote:
NC hauler. Ford ups their GCVWR with just a gear change. It's a 3k lb difference. No difference in frame, suspension or brakes. So I'm curious where you are getting your info.
I don't care about ford GVWR I care about what the manafacturer rates their axle capacity at. Which is close to 10k. Ford puts it around 67-7500 give or take depending on what block , leaf springs and tires they put on it.
People always say you can't change door sticker gvwr.....it's a legal number. Well first off NO it's not. What's to stop me from buying a f450 and putting f250 axles with SRWs under it because I like the way they look. Then what? My capacity doesn't change because of a door sticker? That makes no sense.

You're right....You've got all the answers..You're legal, you're safe, you know what you're doing..I'm wrong. You've done a most excellent job justifying what you are towing with what you're towing with...I wished I were an expert and not bought an overkill truck...probably could have gotten by with a 250/2500,,,just not go with manufacturer recommended ratings and put air bags on the truck..but I'm one of those old school stupid engineers that goes by specs..can't help myself...oh well, even at almost 66 yrs of age, I'm still learning ..

[kofire]

NC hauler. Ford ups their GCVWR with just a gear change. It's a 3k lb difference. No difference in frame, suspension or brakes. So I'm curious where you are getting your info.
I don't care about ford GVWR I care about what the manafacturer rates their axle capacity at. Which is close to 10k. Ford puts it around 67-7500 give or take depending on what block , leaf springs and tires they put on it.
People always say you can't change door sticker gvwr.....it's a legal number. Well first off NO it's not. What's to stop me from buying a f450 and putting f250 axles with SRWs under it because I like the way they look. Then what? My capacity doesn't change because of a door sticker? That makes no sense.

[NC_Hauler]

kofire wrote:

lincster wrote:

kofire wrote:

lincster wrote:

kofire wrote:

lincster wrote:

kofire wrote:

lincster wrote:

kofire wrote:
I tow a 38' weekend warrior with a large slide. I have an F250 with airbags. It tows great. I am completely legal and I am actually planning on going bigger.

I never stated anything about legal, I said "within tow ratings of the truck".

I would like to see a CAT scale ticket and then the year of your truck before I judge. 🙂

There's one on glamisdunes.com. 2008 ww led3505. 06 f250. Lifted 8" on 37" tires.
I'm under all legal ratings. That's all that matters to me. If there was an issue with people exceeding their manafacturers rated sticker there would be a law prohibiting it. We have laws for everything in this country. If you have proof of somebody recreational towing and being sued for something in a civil lawsuit please post it up here. I'd love to read it.
You can literally find anything on the internet. I've yet to find a factual story about this issue. I could literally being involved in a civil suit with all kinds of things, heck we probably shouldn't ever have anybody over to the house because we might get sued.

Like I said, I am not talking "legal" stuff.

Although I'm not sure what you mean by "legal ratings".
What ratings are those?

Again, post up a CAT scale ticket with your year truck and then lets talk.

How do you post pics? I've got some with a slightly different truck but should be the same. Rear axle unloaded trailer 6460. Rear axle Trailer loaded 7240
I have a sterling 10.5 rear axle. It is rated for 9750 by the manfacturer. I have toyo mud terrains rated at 3800 a piece. By legal I'm referring to staying under axle, tire ratings. Those are legally enforceable per the CVC.
I'd like to hear your argument why I'm unsafe or should not be towing my trailer with my current truck.

What year is your truck?

You need to re read what I have stated, I never stated anything about not being safe, I said I would base my response after I see real weights and I know what year your truck is.
Year of truck affects what your GVWR and GCWR are.

Your numbers and descriptions you stated above don't make any sense.

Rear axle unloaded trailer 6460. Rear axle Trailer loaded 7240


Does this mean your rear axle on your truck and the difference is when you have your trailer hooked up and when you don't?

That means you have 780lbs of pin weight? Impossible.

Ok Lincster I'll make this more clear. I'm not sure if you're intentionally being difficult or what. I allready said my truck is an 06 f250. I'm not sure how else to explain this but here goes. With an unloaded trailer my rear axle weight on my truck is 6460. With my trailer loaded my rear axle weight is 7240.

Not trying to be difficult at all. I'm trying to get accurate information and you finally provided it.
I'm sorry if I missed you stating your truck is a 2006.

Ok, here are the facts.
Ford rates your truck, in completely stock format, at a GVWR of 11,500lbs and a GCWR of 23,000lbs. This is with a Diesel engine and 20" wheels with stock tires from the factory.

So, lets say your truck weighs 7500lbs with full fuel and no passengers, I know I am close as I owned a 2006 Dually and my truck weighed 8200lbs full of fuel and no passengers.

So, based on 7500lbs, the max pin weight you can have is 11,500-7500=4000lbs. That's a high pin weight, so you are probably ok there, if your truck was stock. For overall weight, the heaviest you can be is 23,000-7500=15,500lbs, for a stock truck.

So, first thing going against you are your oversize tires. All tow ratings from Ford are based on stock configuration, when you change stuff, you essentially change the tow ratings.

Case in point, in 2006, Ford offered a DRW with 3.73 gears or 4.30 gears. The GCWR was 23,500lbs for the 3.73 gears and 26,000lbs for the 4.30 gears. Everything else stayed the same. So, you can see, just changing your gear ratio will change the tow ratings.
By changing your tire size, you effectively changed your gear ratio. Without regearing, you have changed your tow ratings in the negative way.
Now, lets address your changes first.

Unloaded or loaded trailer only affects your weight on your truck very little, as you stated from your numbers.

Now, what I am interested in is TOTAL weights when you are all hooked up.
That will tell you if you are within the tow ratings of your truck. Which, I can almost guarantee, you are not.

Fair enough. I've regeared to 4:56. Puts me back to close to stock. We have two different points in our approach. I understand yours. I've read a lot of your threads over the years and they are very reasonable and most of all very informed.
My father owns a tow boss so I know the differences. Having a dually gets you a different axle anyways. Plus the gearing that truck is awesome.
My approach is simple. I know the limits of my tires, rims and what the manafacturer rates their axle at. Ford makes up their own numbers based on different things such as springs, block size and tires. It's still the same axle with the same brakes , legal capacity and stopping power.
I know the laws in my state. I'm very familiar with the cvc and applicable federal standards. I know there is no law in California that prohibits me from exceeding gvwr and gcvwr of my vehicle. I choose to exceed them based on the law. If it was an issue there would be a law restricting me from doing so. In that case I would abide by it 100%.
I understand the civil lawsuit argument but even if I had a tow truck rated for ten times the trailer I'm towing it does not make me safe. Negligence makes me unsafe. That's hard to prove when no laws have been broken. It's hard to prove when I am under all manafacturer ratings. The trailer stops itself. The axles brakes are rated for almost 10k lbs. the tires capacity far exceed the stock ones. The brakes are aftermarket with considerably better stopping power. I have an exhaust brake. Ford doesn't even provide a sway bar unless you get the camper package I added a much larger then stock one. I've taken reasonable steps to make my vehicle a much better tow vehicle then stock.

You said it yourself. Ford ups gcvwr over a simple gear change. That does nothing for braking. All that does is help tow forward. It does nothing for stopping. It's the same brakes as the 3:73 geared stock dually.

GVWR isn't changed with gearing... bur you're not worried about GVWR..that's ok, as long as one is under RAWR, but GCWR is based on a lot of things, one being braking and strength of frame, suspension, OEM tires...Using bigger tires, even though you changed out your gearing, still brings that gearings capabilities down some, but as you stated, you don't care about GCWR either..

[NC_Hauler]

ramgunner wrote:

lmcracing wrote:
I am concerned about the dually as a daily commuter, do any of you use it as one?

I drive one through a narrow security access gate every day. Have to use a prox card to get in. It's not an issue.

I've been using a dually as a daily driver for almost 11 years..Go anywhere I want to..No big deal..Heck, my wife who is only 5' 2', and early 60's, (don't tell on me:)) has driven the truck quite a bit when camping..She loves it...

[NC_Hauler]

kofire wrote:

lincster wrote:

kofire wrote:
I tow a 38' weekend warrior with a large slide. I have an F250 with airbags. It tows great. I am completely legal and I am actually planning on going bigger.

I never stated anything about legal, I said "within tow ratings of the truck".

I would like to see a CAT scale ticket and then the year of your truck before I judge. 🙂

There's one on glamisdunes.com. 2008 ww led3505. 06 f250. Lifted 8" on 37" tires.
I'm under all legal ratings. That's all that matters to me. If there was an issue with people exceeding their manafacturers rated sticker there would be a law prohibiting it. We have laws for everything in this country. If you have proof of somebody recreational towing and being sued for something in a civil lawsuit please post it up here. I'd love to read it.
You can literally find anything on the internet. I've yet to find a factual story about this issue. I could literally being involved in a civil suit with all kinds of things, heck we probably shouldn't ever have anybody over to the house because we might get sued.

Just because others do it doesn't make it smart or safe...Airbags level your load..You may be "legal" in the sense of the word to dot, but I'm willing to bet you're over some of your trucks recommended ratings. Say what you want, you've already convinced yourself it's all well and good, but my family's safety comes foremost, and I'll tow accordingly.

[dedmiston]

Outdoor speakers anyone?

[crazybanshee]

I am in for a Chevy vs Ford debate:Z

[lincster]

lawnspecialties wrote:

Frankandbeans wrote:
....but I figured nobody else is either, beating to death the same topic that has been going on for eons.

WHAT? You mean this has been discussed before? Outrageous.

I think we need another tire thread. Lol

[lincster]

kofire wrote:

lincster wrote:

kofire wrote:

lincster wrote:

kofire wrote:

lincster wrote:

kofire wrote:

lincster wrote:

kofire wrote:
I tow a 38' weekend warrior with a large slide. I have an F250 with airbags. It tows great. I am completely legal and I am actually planning on going bigger.

I never stated anything about legal, I said "within tow ratings of the truck".

I would like to see a CAT scale ticket and then the year of your truck before I judge. 🙂

There's one on glamisdunes.com. 2008 ww led3505. 06 f250. Lifted 8" on 37" tires.
I'm under all legal ratings. That's all that matters to me. If there was an issue with people exceeding their manafacturers rated sticker there would be a law prohibiting it. We have laws for everything in this country. If you have proof of somebody recreational towing and being sued for something in a civil lawsuit please post it up here. I'd love to read it.
You can literally find anything on the internet. I've yet to find a factual story about this issue. I could literally being involved in a civil suit with all kinds of things, heck we probably shouldn't ever have anybody over to the house because we might get sued.

Like I said, I am not talking "legal" stuff.

Although I'm not sure what you mean by "legal ratings".
What ratings are those?

Again, post up a CAT scale ticket with your year truck and then lets talk.

How do you post pics? I've got some with a slightly different truck but should be the same. Rear axle unloaded trailer 6460. Rear axle Trailer loaded 7240
I have a sterling 10.5 rear axle. It is rated for 9750 by the manfacturer. I have toyo mud terrains rated at 3800 a piece. By legal I'm referring to staying under axle, tire ratings. Those are legally enforceable per the CVC.
I'd like to hear your argument why I'm unsafe or should not be towing my trailer with my current truck.

What year is your truck?

You need to re read what I have stated, I never stated anything about not being safe, I said I would base my response after I see real weights and I know what year your truck is.
Year of truck affects what your GVWR and GCWR are.

Your numbers and descriptions you stated above don't make any sense.

Rear axle unloaded trailer 6460. Rear axle Trailer loaded 7240


Does this mean your rear axle on your truck and the difference is when you have your trailer hooked up and when you don't?

That means you have 780lbs of pin weight? Impossible.

Ok Lincster I'll make this more clear. I'm not sure if you're intentionally being difficult or what. I allready said my truck is an 06 f250. I'm not sure how else to explain this but here goes. With an unloaded trailer my rear axle weight on my truck is 6460. With my trailer loaded my rear axle weight is 7240.

Not trying to be difficult at all. I'm trying to get accurate information and you finally provided it.
I'm sorry if I missed you stating your truck is a 2006.

Ok, here are the facts.
Ford rates your truck, in completely stock format, at a GVWR of 11,500lbs and a GCWR of 23,000lbs. This is with a Diesel engine and 20" wheels with stock tires from the factory.

So, lets say your truck weighs 7500lbs with full fuel and no passengers, I know I am close as I owned a 2006 Dually and my truck weighed 8200lbs full of fuel and no passengers.

So, based on 7500lbs, the max pin weight you can have is 11,500-7500=4000lbs. That's a high pin weight, so you are probably ok there, if your truck was stock. For overall weight, the heaviest you can be is 23,000-7500=15,500lbs, for a stock truck.

So, first thing going against you are your oversize tires. All tow ratings from Ford are based on stock configuration, when you change stuff, you essentially change the tow ratings.

Case in point, in 2006, Ford offered a DRW with 3.73 gears or 4.30 gears. The GCWR was 23,500lbs for the 3.73 gears and 26,000lbs for the 4.30 gears. Everything else stayed the same. So, you can see, just changing your gear ratio will change the tow ratings.
By changing your tire size, you effectively changed your gear ratio. Without regearing, you have changed your tow ratings in the negative way.
Now, lets address your changes first.

Unloaded or loaded trailer only affects your weight on your truck very little, as you stated from your numbers.

Now, what I am interested in is TOTAL weights when you are all hooked up.
That will tell you if you are within the tow ratings of your truck. Which, I can almost guarantee, you are not.

Fair enough. I've regeared to 4:56. Puts me back to close to stock. We have two different points in our approach. I understand yours. I've read a lot of your threads over the years and they are very reasonable and most of all very informed.
My father owns a tow boss so I know the differences. Having a dually gets you a different axle anyways. Plus the gearing that truck is awesome.
My approach is simple. I know the limits of my tires, rims and what the manafacturer rates their axle at. Ford makes up their own numbers based on different things such as springs, block size and tires. It's still the same axle with the same brakes , legal capacity and stopping power.
I know the laws in my state. I'm very familiar with the cvc and applicable federal standards. I know there is no law in California that prohibits me from exceeding gvwr and gcvwr of my vehicle. I choose to exceed them based on the law. If it was an issue there would be a law restricting me from doing so. In that case I would abide by it 100%.
I understand the civil lawsuit argument but even if I had a tow truck rated for ten times the trailer I'm towing it does not make me safe. Negligence makes me unsafe. That's hard to prove when no laws have been broken. It's hard to prove when I am under all manafacturer ratings. The trailer stops itself. The axles brakes are rated for almost 10k lbs. the tires capacity far exceed the stock ones. The brakes are aftermarket with considerably better stopping power. I have an exhaust brake. Ford doesn't even provide a sway bar unless you get the camper package I added a much larger then stock one. I've taken reasonable steps to make my vehicle a much better tow vehicle then stock.

You said it yourself. Ford ups gcvwr over a simple gear change. That does nothing for braking. All that does is help tow forward. It does nothing for stopping. It's the same brakes as the 3:73 geared stock dually.

Fair enough. We both see where each other is coming from. Peace.

[lawnspecialties]

Frankandbeans wrote:
....but I figured nobody else is either, beating to death the same topic that has been going on for eons.

WHAT? You mean this has been discussed before? Outrageous.

[dedmiston]

Frankandbeans wrote:
I was sitting in traffic today, and was admiring the monster torque that those semi trucks make. Really cool watching them literally twist the frame every time they take off from a stop.

Then I thought "If I ever got a toy hauler too big for my 3/4 ton, I'm just gonna buy a semi truck. Because they look freaking awesome. Then I'll just buy the biggest toy hauler made."

I'd build it up and paint it to make it look like Optimus Prime, with the 6 piped stack and the whole nine yards. Because America.

Not really contributing a whole lot of usefulness to the discussion, I know, but I figured nobody else is either, beating to death the same topic that has been going on for eons.

I wish we had a Like button.