Very Disappointed with New Keystone Alpine

[Mike_Stanbro]

We just purchased a 2018 Alpine 3400RS. We custom ordered it as we wanted full body paint, a generator, and dual-pane windows. I took delivery two weeks ago.

This is my fifth RV so I am no stranger to the issues one encounters with a new RV. Unfortunately this one has a remarkable number of problems and I am very disappointed with the quantity of them and the seriousness of a few:

1) The TPO roof membrane has numerous sharp objects under it that will eventually protrude through it (staples, screws, wood chips, etc.). It appears that the roof was not cleaned before the membrane was stretched over the decking material. I towed the trailer to the Keystone factor in Indiana (2000 miles) and showed the roof to the Customer Support Manager. I was told Keystone will do nothing about it. If it leaks within the warranty period, they will evaluate it then. Which means what -- patches where the objects poke through? - UGH! I wanted them to install a new roof at the factory. After being told by the Customer Support Manager that this was considered "acceptable build quality" I was furious. Had I known this was their position, I would not have taken delivery of the trailer.

I get up on my RV roof a least once a year to clean and put down UV inhibitor. I also plan to install solar panels and will need to clean them off periodically to maintain peak performance. It will be difficult if not impossible to walk on the roof without stepping on an area where one of those sharp objects is poking upwards. It will be no time before holes form. To be blunt, I'm pissed.

2) The power for the emergency breakaway circuit was wired without a fuse or circuit breaker and the hot wire of the breakaway switch was installed such that it chafed between the front cap and the pin box. It eventually shorted to the pin box which is chassis ground. That wire got extremely hot and melted all of the insulation on that wire, melted the split-loom tubing it was routed in, and melted against the other wires in the loom. It was a #16 wire, wired directly from the battery to the hot side of the breakaway switch. The brake wires on the switched side of the switch are #12 and there are two of them. The current draw on that circuit is over 15A. A #16 wire is too small for that current and that it was wired with no over-current protection is unbelievable. Why it did not burn up all the wires in that loom, or the entire trailer when it shorted to the chassis is a mystery. Built to RVIA standards? I think not.

3) A hydraulic line on the right-front jack split and is leaking fluid.

4) The light fixture over the kitchen island lost pieces of its hardware due to vibration and the pieces got under the driver-side slide during transit from the factory to the dealer. When the slide went out, the pieces trapped under the slide damaged the vinyl flooring. Not sure how that is going to get fixed as it is sheet material. A whole new floor? Again, the Customer Support Manager made it clear that it would not be done at the factory. How well is that going to turn out if done by a dealer?

5) The bathroom shower has a chip in the gel coat on the floor so that black color from the underlying fiberglass is showing. I don't know if a workman dropped a tool on it or if it is a manufacturing defect. Either way, I was allowed to leave the factory with the chip in it. QA? I am also unsure how that is going to get fixed.

6) One of the ceiling fan blades broke off on the trip home from the Keystone factory, apparently due to road shock. Is that going to be an on-going problem?

7) The rear screws of the drawer slides that support the kitchen drawers were only 3/8" long and screwed into soft pine. They pulled out of the pine and the drawers were dangling from just the front screws when I opened them.

😎 The audio cable that runs from the living room TV to the stereo head unit was wired such that audio out from the TV was plugged into the audio out of the head unit (should have gone to audio in). Granted, a minor issue, but it took me a long time to figure out what was wrong and required that I pull the head unit out of the cabinet to trace the wiring.

9) The passenger-side slide is leaving large patches, several feet long, of black marks on the vinyl floor that I scrub away only to have reappear the next time the trailer goes down the road. It seems there is black material on the underside of the slide's leading edge that is rubbing off on the floor due to vibration during travel.

In summary, this unit is NOT up to the quality I expected from Keystone. That they did such a poor job on the roof is infuriating. I purchased this Alpine due to the positive things I read about the Alpine brand and Keystone products. To say that I am disappointed is an understatement.

The fact that Keystone considers the issues with the roof "acceptable build quality" should be a warning to potential buyers.

[DogTrainer]

I bought Keystone, same on the roof...and then Deans RV' told me that I needed a new roof and I had to get legal involved. first 6 months.

wiring for trailer was loose and i found that out when i first towed it and lost lights. electrical caps came off and shorted out.

i could go on and on...trade it in and buy another brand. they dont care. enough people buy them who just fix it themselves or like me make 20 trips to the dealer and then just give up...

[LI_Happy_Camper]

We had a Keystone Alpine when they first started making them. Two years and a thousand problems later they gave us a brand new one. Enough said.

[sgfrye]

goducks10 wrote:

dapperdan wrote:
"The industry as a whole could start by:

1) Adopting an industry-wide building code.
2) Geting off the pay-per-piece wages that allow the crews to build the day's quota as fast as they can, then leave. Meaning, if they can build the X units for the day's quota in 5 hours, they go home. If the mfr wants X units, make the crews build them in a normal 8 hour shift.
3) Adopting a more auto-industry-like dealer network that forces dealers to take a FIFO approach to service, no matter where a unit was bought.
4) Ramping up their parts departments so dealers don't wait weeks and months for parts and have them often not be the =right= parts when they finally get there.
5) Pay the dealers for warranty service in a timely manner and a =fair= price.

Notice, I never said anything about LCI products, as that's a completely different issue.

Lylle"

This is a GREAT idea but we as consumers just keep buying sub-par constructed units in record numbers so this most likely will never happen. 😞

Dan

Americans love their WalMarts, Targets and anywhere else that sells low priced stuff.

Same with RV's. They want a low priced RV because most don't use them for more than 20 nights a year. They may start out gung ho but after 3-4 years it's sitting in storage doing nothing. I'm sure most use them just barely enough to justify the low payment for 10-15 years.
Most would never buy a high quality RV for way more than they're paying now. I know I wouldn't drop $60-70K for a 5er that I only use 40-50 nights a year.
And you'll never see the quota system go away. No RV MFG is going to pay their workers more money thinking they'll get better quality from Marty meth head, because the MFG down the street is going to still use the quota to pump out cheaper units to sell more faster.
The RV industry is stuck in a time warp and can't afford to get out of it.

Spot on. X2

[Community Alumni]

Comparing a Bayliner to an RV is an insult to Bayliner, in my opinion. Bayliners are budget boats but are much better built than the typical RV.

[topjimmy]

So true Ralph I did not want to insult all the Bayliner folks out there but they serve a purpose bringing boating to the masses at a affordable price just like most RV's any way here is a pic of My Trusty Ole Grady Lady ya asked for

[phillyg]

"Yes Folks, thats a screw between the window flange and wall on a new Rockwood. Do you think that may have leaked a little?...... It apparently made it out the factory door, through the Forest River dedicated QC facility advertised as 20,000 sq ft of quality assurance......"

Oh, that's nothing. Some bozo at FR put a screw through a cold water line in my Wildcat. Leaked very slowly and took a long time to track down.

[Ralph_Cramden]

topjimmy wrote:
I bought a Grady White Boat new in 1994 and it has never broke down or leaked etc.. in over 2 decades and wondered how do they do that so I Saw a tour of the Grady White Boat factory and THAT is how ya build a Quality hand built product the attention to detail is impressive, the workers were taking their time going over the smallest detail in every process of making these boats and Grady only uses the highest quality components but ya know what folks Quality Cost money and GW's are not cheap as their workers are not paid by the piece or have quota's they just do what it takes to do it right the first time and there is NO WAY the RV Industry is going to take the time or money or get quality employees that are paid well and care about their jobs and the company they work for except companies like New Horizons 5er's for example and most folks will not pay the money for a New Horizons so you get what we got here is basically a roll of the dice on getting a good one no matter what brand ya buy like Dirty Harry says "Do ya feel Lucky Punk?..well do ya?":B

Exactly, had a 24' Grady offshore back in the 80's, what a boat. But a Grady is not a Bayliner, or the other way around, and if you're going to compare, most RV's are Bayliners. Please post a pic of your 94, would love to see it.


Here is the picture of the day, freshly stolen from another forum. Yes Folks, thats a screw between the window flange and wall on a new Rockwood. Do you think that may have leaked a little while sitting at Rockwood or the transporters staging facilities, or during shipping, or at the dealer? It apparently made it out the factory door, through the Forest River dedicated QC facility advertised as 20,000 sq ft of quality assurance, and to the dealer. I believe it even made it through the PDI LOL. Also notice the clever use of closed cell foam behind the window flange as opposed to butyl tape, followed up with caulk. Talk about poo.

[topjimmy]

I bought a Grady White Boat new in 1994 and it has never broke down or leaked etc.. in over 2 decades and wondered how do they do that so I Saw a tour of the Grady White Boat factory and THAT is how ya build a Quality hand built product the attention to detail is impressive, the workers were taking their time going over the smallest detail in every process of making these boats and Grady only uses the highest quality components but ya know what folks Quality Cost money and GW's are not cheap as their workers are not paid by the piece or have quota's they just do what it takes to do it right the first time and there is NO WAY the RV Industry is going to take the time or money or get quality employees that are paid well and care about their jobs and the company they work for except companies like New Horizons 5er's for example and most folks will not pay the money for a New Horizons so you get what we got here is basically a roll of the dice on getting a good one no matter what brand ya buy like Dirty Harry says "Do ya feel Lucky Punk?..well do ya?":B

[Endricken]

My wife dreams of a new RV and won't spring for new carpet or a paint job, but I'm keeping our 2005 (before the poor workforce and lowest cost mentality took over) Montana Big Sky as long as we can. And we live in it 8-9 months/year.
Seems almost everything eventually breaks (even the Propane Tanks age out!), but I just repair and replace with the best replacements I can find.

[laknox]

goducks10 wrote:
When management ends the quota system quality will improve. I'd be willing to bet that most of the workers would do better work if they weren't more interested in getting their quota for the day, week or month.
Fact. I have a friend that worked in a mobile home manufacturing plant. He told me that as soon as they got X amount of work done they could leave. He said they just threw the stuff together.
I know him from my time as a union carpenter. He was one of the guys that I requested when I ran a job. Funny how getting a good paycheck helps one to do better work.
It's not a guarantee but there are those that would do better work if the conditions permitted. And of course there's always those that just don't give a chit.

And there ya go, though I definitely don't disagree with the "quality starts at the top" mindset. IMO, it =certainly= doesn't start at Thor or Berkshire Hathaway.

Lyle

[goducks10]

When management ends the quota system quality will improve. I'd be willing to bet that most of the workers would do better work if they weren't more interested in getting their quota for the day, week or month.
Fact. I have a friend that worked in a mobile home manufacturing plant. He told me that as soon as they got X amount of work done they could leave. He said they just threw the stuff together.
I know him from my time as a union carpenter. He was one of the guys that I requested when I ran a job. Funny how getting a good paycheck helps one to do better work.
It's not a guarantee but there are those that would do better work if the conditions permitted. And of course there's always those that just don't give a chit.

[Mike_Stanbro]

Again, this is not a speed issue. Quality is a culture. A bad worker doesn’t automatically get better when they do it slower.

I agree with the above statement. Quality is a culture and it comes from the very top of the company. I am an electronics engineer and I have worked for 13 companies over 40 years. In the later years, I was a contractor and I worked short-duration jobs for many different companies. As I was moving around a lot, I could quickly sense the differences in attitudes about quality versus time and cost. It only took a week or two to get a feel for how things were run. Companies that specialized in military and aerospace products always focused on quality while consumer product companies generally focused on cost and time to market.

While I understand that RVs are price sensitive, that there are boom and bust periods in the industry, and that money is only made during the boom times, I simply do not understand or condone the total disregard for basic principles of workmanship. Case in point is the debris under the TPO membrane on my brand new Keystone Alpine. It is obvious that the decking was not cleaned off before the membrane was laid down. There are so many staples, screws, and wood chips under it that I was shocked when I discovered it.

I feel fairly certain that this total disregard for quality comes from the top of Keystone as this is a quote from their owners manual:

"Because of the manufacturing process, air pickets and/or visible spots may be seen in the roof material. These visible spots can be caused by debris (wood, staples, screws, etc.) that are between the roof material and decking or by imperfections occurring during the roof material manufacture. In most cases, these are considered cosmetic in nature and seldom require any corrective action."

It is their "manufacturing process" to leave word, staples, and screws on the decking. How long does it take to sweep or vacuum the decking of a trailer? Is the roof not one of the most critical areas of an RV's life expectancy? If you were building RVs, wouldn't you want to ensure that the roof was well manufactured and that it would not develop leaks after the owner walked on it?

This is the same company that manufactures the Montana brand that is touted as the most popular brand of 5th wheel on the market. I am told that Alpines are manufactured on the same assembly line as Montana. It makes sense as they are the two luxury brands from Keystone and they have similar floor plans. So luxury to Keystone does not in any way imply quality. I *assumed* it did. My mistake.

In summary, the notion that lazy workers are the problem with the poor quality of RVs is not my view of things. I firmly believe that quality is driven from the top of any company and that lack of quality, while not a deliberate outcome, is a conscious decision by a company to save on manufacturing costs. The RV industry is in a boom time and Keystone is making as much money as it can while it can. Does it go as high as the parent company Thor? I suspect so but obviously have no way of knowing.

[goducks10]

Ralph Cramden wrote:

goducks10 wrote:
I'm not sure the RV industry can build a quality RV. Most of the issues range from supplier to poor execution to old school design. Lets face it there's just a lot of junky stuff in an RV. Take booth dinettes for example. Poor quality cushions to start with. Won't matter if they look like a million dollars. Most aren't worth sitting on for more than 20 mins.
Crappy stereos. Doesn't matter if they're wired in right or not, they're still behind the times for functions and most speakers are $10 cheapos.
I could go on forever but you get the point. If it's not one thing then it'll be another.

LOL.....You must have a high end luxury RV with those $10 speakers. Most run of the mill low end slum RVs come equipped with the $6 speakers.

But in reality when purchased in huge lots by the RV manufacturer from suppliers using the lowest irresponsible bidder who can source the junkiest Chinese junk your $10 speakers is a $4 speaker and my $6 speaker is a $1.35 speaker.

Even worse are the light fixtures. On our 17 Rockwood every LED cieling fixture failed one after the other over the course of the first 2 months. When one would go out it would develop so much heat the base would melt, and they actually scorched the cieling panel above. They owned up to the issue and sent me an entire case of 24 light fixtures. The replacements were not much better but they don't get near as hot and only one of the 10 installed has failed since. They probably were purchased in a 40' C container packed lot for peanuts. No brand name, specification label, or any other marking on fixture or case. 100% Chinese generic.

No high end unit here. 🙂

[Ralph_Cramden]

goducks10 wrote:
I'm not sure the RV industry can build a quality RV. Most of the issues range from supplier to poor execution to old school design. Lets face it there's just a lot of junky stuff in an RV. Take booth dinettes for example. Poor quality cushions to start with. Won't matter if they look like a million dollars. Most aren't worth sitting on for more than 20 mins.
Crappy stereos. Doesn't matter if they're wired in right or not, they're still behind the times for functions and most speakers are $10 cheapos.
I could go on forever but you get the point. If it's not one thing then it'll be another.

LOL.....You must have a high end luxury RV with those $10 speakers. Most run of the mill low end slum RVs come equipped with the $6 speakers.

But in reality when purchased in huge lots by the RV manufacturer from suppliers using the lowest irresponsible bidder who can source the junkiest Chinese junk your $10 speakers is a $4 speaker and my $6 speaker is a $1.35 speaker.

Even worse are the light fixtures. On our 17 Rockwood every LED cieling fixture failed one after the other over the course of the first 2 months. When one would go out it would develop so much heat the base would melt, and they actually scorched the cieling panel above. They owned up to the issue and sent me an entire case of 24 light fixtures. The replacements were not much better but they don't get near as hot and only one of the 10 installed has failed since. They probably were purchased in a 40' C container packed lot for peanuts. No brand name, specification label, or any other marking on fixture or case. 100% Chinese generic.