Buying used from a rental company-process ?s

[PonyGrrl]

Yes, I've read the voluminous thread on WHY to buy a used C from the rental place. We're persuaded that this is the right option for our budget and needs.

So what I don't know--the truck camper was bought & sold private party--is the unwritten rules of buying from the dealer.

Is the price listed as 'internet special' negotiable? What % might we expect to get discounted?

Any hints, tips etc are welcome. I have a professional negotiator (sister in law in sales) on tap who El Monte's GM owes a favor to...but I don't want to ask her to call that one in IF the understood tradition with RV purchase is paying a certain % off sticker.

Thanks in advance for any ideas from your experience!

[ronfisherman]

This thread is closed. OP should have enough information.

[Grillmeister]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
The OP’s question has been answered and the continual bantering is not a positive experience for anyone.
Time for this thread to close and…………
Time for a BEER :B:B:B:B:B

[winnietrey]

You are losing me again Gotsmart,

Back in the hay day 06 07, yes home appriasals were crazy. Not so much now they are pretty accurate. Lots of folks got sued and they are very close to market value.

Why is the NADA guide a tool for comparing a vehicle to itself? I don't get that.
a 2001 23a or a 239 coachmen are worth what they are worth. As is a 2001 toyota or a 2001 ford fesita. Unless your vehicle is special, rare or somehow unique, NADA is not the final authority but they are probably not all that far off

Personally I like KBB better. You might not want to use nada, problem is everyone else does. So getting more could be difficult. I think nada is usually high, esp on cars

The point I made was not about, which vehicle depreciates more slowly. It was this just, becuase you bought a 100k rental cheap. That does not mean the deal is as good as people tend to think. Becuase you still have wear and tear issues and if you ever go to sell it or trade it. You may well get creamed. So on the front end yes it was cheap on the back end not so much.

Plus again you lose some of the nicer things that a non rental has. Slide, V10, awning ladder etc

[gotsmart]

soren, I agree with you. The ONLY reason I went with the NADA numbers is because winnietrey went there.

winnietrey wrote:
Just for fun and becuase I am bored at work today, I played with NADA a bit.
I compared 2 rigs, 1) mine a 2001 239 Coachmen Catlina sport. and 2) a 23A 2001 Forewinds.

IMO, NADA does not work well with book-value to book-value comparisons between 2 vehicles. To me it is like the appraised value of a home to it's market price. Home appraisals are very subjective and not always accurate. The NADA guide is a tool for comparing a vehicle to itself. In this regard I said that CA prices very close to the NADA book-value. It may be that this strategy works well with selling rental fleet vehicles. CA seems to move a lot of their used MHs.

I don't buy vehicles based upon which one depreciates more slowly. When you compare a retail RV to a rental RV in this manner, the retail RV will appear to be the better value - I'm guessing 99% of the time (allowing for owners who trash their retail RV).

[soren]

winnietrey wrote:

Not to mention if I bought with 90K I would now be at 140K. And I know people claim the running gear will go a billion miles, But I am not so convinced of that. And even if the engine and tranny go forever. I could easily see a good part of that 500 going to things like power steering pump, altenator, starter. etc. Those items do break. And the higher the miles, the more likely they will fail. Not to mention fridge, heater, water heater, generator etc. Nothing lasts forever

I think that this is the key to why buying a prior rental rig with 100K plus on the ODO is a bad move, UNLESS you are positive that you will run it into the ground. The proof is taking the specific model that is being discussed (Majestic 23A) and entering that into a search on RVtrader or similar. There are a several offered by dealers that are within a few years, with similar mileage. Asking prices are in the $10-18K range. Now two things happened here. Obviously, the seller traded (or sold) a unit they bought from Cruise America, to a local dealer. Second, given that the dealer has an ASKING price that is 25-60% less than shown on the rental agency's website, it is pretty clear that the owners took a pretty horrific beating in depreciation. Given this evidence, Winnietrey, I would say that your #s are way off, and that you come out much further ahead than you estimated.

[winnietrey]

You lost me with your anaylis Gotsmart. But it is what Soren said. You don't add in options. Esp if the rig comes with those. NADA says as much at the bottom of their page. If I were to add that into my coachmen it comes up to about 29k, not the 22k it is really worth

My point was you get into a rental cheaper, but they also depreciate quicker, espically once they go over 100K

If you plan to keep the MH for ever that would not matter, and one could talk about paying less interest etc.

But at the end of the day, you give up a lot also, like the slide, V8 not V10, fact it has so many more miles, and use on the house part. Heaters fridges, etc only last so long.

So in my simple analysis, If I were to sell now, my rig would have cost 500 more a year for 8 years or 4k. To me given all my rig has that a rental does not, that was a good value, for me.

Not to mention if I bought with 90K I would now be at 140K. And I know people claim the running gear will go a billion miles, But I am not so convinced of that. And even if the engine and tranny go forever. I could easily see a good part of that 500 going to things like power steering pump, altenator, starter. etc. Those items do break. And the higher the miles, the more likely they will fail. Not to mention fridge, heater, water heater, generator etc. Nothing lasts forever

[soren]

Gotsmart, there are several serious flaws with this analysis. First, regardless of what any "value" guide places on mileage, there is a mountain of evidence from members here that mileage, specifically LOW mileage is a key factor in determining value. Second, unless you are in the process of being bambozzled by a salesman, adding options in an attempt to inflate the "value" of a used rig is simply a delusion. Dealers, banks, and knowledgeable buyers couldn't care how the rig is equipped, unless it is missing a key item, such as a genny, AWNING, or AC. The "options" you list in an attempt to inflate the value are known in the industry as "standard run" items and appear in the vast majority of units rolling off the line, they have ZERO added value. Second, you have gone to the extreme of inflating the price with options that aren't even real, a driver's door on a van chassis, smoke detector, LP detector, cruise, power windows. All either standard build from the chassis manufacturer, or required by law. Finally, Winnytrey should be commended for a rational review of why a thoroughly used rental is NOT A great deal, if viewed rationally. I have previously discussed my experience with an exceptionally worn, poorly maintained rig that CA has no issues with renting me, when in fact it should of never left the lot. Couple that experience with watching clueless foreign tourists beating the******out of these things, and the obvious fact that C.A sells these things with extraordinarily high mileage, AFTER they have served their useful lifespan, and I only have one thought. If you're happy, that's what matters. If I found one priced at a significant discount compared to a privately held, low mileage properly equipped unit (slide, awning, etc..) it might make sense, but not a worn out eight year old rig, with 100K miles for that price.

EDIT: After reviewing your NADA link, I found the real world value that most experience members here would be negotiating from, when buying a similar, non-rental rig. The "option free" low retail is $21,500, not the nearly $26K "value" you created. IF the rig was privately owned, in great condition, and had six new tires installed, the fair value would be the $21.5K. Once you factor in the fact that this rig has been flogged for the last eight years, by hundreds of inexperienced users, IMHO $21.5K wouldn't be coming out of my wallet anytime soon. I'm sure that there are plenty of happy owners of retired C.A rigs, but thinking that this particular example is worth much more than mid to high teens is wishful thinking.

[gotsmart]

That wasn't much of an Apples-to-Apples comparison. If you're going to compare a CA motorhome on NADA you need to drill down to the 'Majestic' series within Four Winds. CA owns the Majestic brand - and even though their MHs are built by Four Winds there are enough changes made by CA to make side-by-side comparisons more challenging. I would not bother comparing engines/chassis if you're not going to include, trannys, CCC, towing.

Here is NADA's 2001 Majestic 23A:http://www.nadaguides.com/RVs/2001/Four-Winds/M-23A-E35/3041117/Values

using these options (if they don't appear in the link, add them back to get the adjusted price):

110,000 miles on the odometer
13,500 BTU (Non-Central/Non-Ducted)
Furnace (21,000-28,000 BTU
Microwave/Convection Combo
Gas Grill Cook Top
Water Heater 6 Gallon Gas/Elec. w/DSI
Steering Stabilizer
AM/FM Cassette Stereo
4 KW Gas
Cruise Control
Driver Side Door
Driver Side Door W/ Power Window
LPG Gas/Smoke Detector
Skylight
Spare Tire and Carrier
Tilt Wheel
Trailer Hitch
Vinyl Graphics

Since I can't get to a 2001 23A on CA's website, I chose a 2006 23A:

Check this 2006 NADA listing: http://www.nadaguides.com/RVs/2006/Four-Winds/M-23A/3044031/Values

using these options (if they don't appear in the link, add them back to get the adjusted price):

100,011 miles on the odometer
13,500 BTU (Non-Central/Non-Ducted)
Furnace (21,000-28,000 BTU
Microwave/Convection Combo
Gas Grill Cook Top
Water Heater 6 Gallon Gas/Elec. w/DSI
Steering Stabilizer
AM/FM Cassette Stereo
4 KW Gas
Cruise Control
Driver Side Door
Driver Side Door W/ Power Window
LPG Gas/Smoke Detector
Skylight
Spare Tire and Carrier
Tilt Wheel
Trailer Hitch
Vinyl Graphics

Here is CA's listing: http://www.cruiseamerica.com/buy/vehicleDetails.aspx?stock=257205

NADA: $25,924 USD , CA: $25,985 USD

My conclusion is that CA is darn near spot on in pricing their used motorhomes for sale.

[winnietrey]

Just for fun and becuase I am bored at work today, I played with NADA a bit.
I compared 2 rigs, 1) mine a 2001 239 Coachmen Catlina sport. and 2) a 23A 2001 Forewinds.

I paid 33k for mine in 2005 with 5K miles. It now has 50K miles.
I guessed in 2005, a 2001 23a Forewinds with say 90K Cruise America would have sold for 18K

Now 8 years later avg Nada on mine is 22k. So net loss 11k
The Forewinds, nada now values at 11k, so 7k net loss.

So for 4k more over 8 years, and for that I recieved

1) started with 85k less miles and wear and tear, on both the house( fridge, heater, etc) and running gear.
2) a slide which is of good value at least to me
3) awning
4) ladder
5) nicer interior
6) V10, not a V8 which is what the 23A has. Another big deal to me

So in my humble opinion, mine was the better buy over a rental.But everyone thinks what they did was the smartest play. Me included

On edit I am guessing on the 18K, I think that may actually be low for a 2001 rig with 90K in 2005. May have been in the low 20's. Which would lower the gap even more. Or I could be high at 18k but if memory serves that is the range I remember.

[IAMICHABOD]

It is good to hear from another owner of a Former Rental that is really satisfied with his choice.

[madcow52]

I own a cruse America 28a that was refurbished. The owner before me bought it and couldn't afford the fuel. This is a great unit. Not the fanciest one the road. But, durable, you bet. This model was only used for rentals and it has a vinyl floors, no roof rack, and it had no awning. I did add a awning , but could have lived without it. I have driven this Four Winds for 12K since I bought it 8 months ago and have NO problem. The ford V-10 is a work horse. I could have bought new (60K more, used Winnie etc for another 30K) Not worth it to me. Mine looks new, new interior. Tires. Sure you have to be cautious with any purchase. Just take your time and you'll be fine. With the money saved you can do a lot. Not that I have had to do anything machanally. I would do it again. Also I have found the lower mileage private units that never moved that only have 12K miles have a lot of problems with rotted roofs, tires, motors that miss and transmissions with questionable shifting just from sitting for years and never moving. I would do it again.

[soren]

Gotsmart, it looks like you have been lucky enough to have had an interesting and totally different experience with C.A. We rented a similar rig that was unbelievably worn out, including a significant hole in the roof that penetrated right through the ceiling. The ceiling was patched with a big goober of caulk, similar to how a four year old would decorate a cake. The roof was visibly sagging in this area. Exactly half of the rig had no working 120 volt receptacles, no tripped breakers, or GFCI outlets. When I discussed this when returning, I got a speech about how little I understand about RV electrical systems. (thirty years as a licensed journeyman electrician, a few credits shy of completing my electrical engineering degree, I just shook my head at this "mechanic") The black tank was leaking at the discharge pipe, there were fabric curtains in the rig that were disgustingly filthy, and roach traps hidden in out of the way places. The most interesting thing about the rig is that it had clearly been 're-powered" with the very old, worn out coach being relocated to a much newer E450 chassis. The Ford part of the rig was obviously far newer and had far less wear that the box.
OTOH, like you commented on, I really had to admire the design and engineering involved in making a rental product as tough and idiot proof as the budget allows. IF I was able to locate a far better quality used rig from these guys, I wouldn't automatically rule it out. Good to hear that yours has been such a success. I have also read a report from an RVer who bought one of El Monte's rigs and really ended up being impressed, they had a massive paper trail to give to the buyer, an exceptional record of maintenance and repairs, and he was real pleased.

[gotsmart]

soren wrote:

I guess we have greatly differing definitions of what a "great deal" is. Have rented a class C from them in the past, anything above scrap price for a Cruise America rig, IMHO, would not be a great deal.

There were three 28R models on the Cruise America lot when I bought mine in 2011. I chose what I felt was the best of the 3 and have been very pleased with it ever since. Just because you had rented what may have been a poorly maintained RV does not mean that all former rental RVs are beat-up wrecks.

This coming October will be the start of my 3rd winter FTing in it here in the Pacific Northwest. I have no slide toppers to deal with, no slide motors to fail, no stabilizers to jam or fail, no external stairs to get stuck or buckle under my fat backside. There's a difference between well appointed and well built. Mine is not well appointed. It is well built AND designed for ease of maintenance - a feature that I like. Every RV tech that has worked on my MH has been amazed that a rental MH would have a slide-out generator. Mine does. My 'basic' RV with no artic package holds its own with every other RV here in western WA. The only thing I needed to do was buy a good pair of warm slippers for the winter. For some people, less is more.

(click for larger image)

[Butch50]

I have to disagree that cash is king. If you have good/decent credit in most cases they want you to finance it. They get kick backs from the loan people and besides as soon as the contract is delivered to the bank the dealership gets their money. Just as fast as if you write them a check which has to go to the bank and be cashed and then they have to wait the 5 to 7 days to make sure that it is good before they get the money released into their account.

Deal on price before you ever discuss how you well finance it.