Class C Quality Brands?

[darrenlaiche]

My wife and I are in the market for our 1st RV. We are leaning to a Class C, but are also looking at 5ers. Due to us not being sure I am pushing for us to look at used C's also. She'll probably override that! My question is - are there a couple Brands of Class C's that last longer and have a better resale value than others? Thanks!

[ron_dittmer]

darrenlaiche,

pnichols brings up some excellent points. Unfortunately no motor home meets every criteria from every list we all share. There will be compromises to make. Set your own priorities and hopefully you will find a rig close enough to meet your particular requirements.

Ron Dittmer

[darrenlaiche]

GREAT "Quality Construction" List pnichols! Thanks!!!

[ron_dittmer]

Though PCs offer sleeping for 4, some even more, I feel they are really engineered for two. That is how I feel with nearly every B+ regardless of length. I don't consider conversion beds as real accommodations. A double/queen bed in back along with a huge cab-over bed is the way to go with a family.

[Bordercollie]

I watched the long video by Phoenix Cruiser on You Tube comparing it's many convenience features and construction of their 25-foot PC to an unnamed similar rig. I was impressed with the thought that went into leak-proof more aerodynamic fuselage and ergonomics with slide retracted. The unnamed rig had ridiculously cramped bathroom layout that would not work with normal sized people. I was not impressed with cargo/storage space on this short rig for carrying bulky items, perhaps the longer PC's have more cargo space for kids, etc. stuff. All rigs have compromises. Simulate using the bathroom, cooking, sleeping, bed making, and carrying bulky stuff aboard before you buy.

[pnichols]

For what it's worth when shopping ... I wouldn't dwell as much on a "quality brand" as I would on "quality construction" of any particular brand or rig that I was interested in.

For example ... look for such things as:

- Are all drawers on steel slides that have simple and fullproof gravity locks so they won't open when going down the road?

- Are the wheel wells steel lined to help control damage from tire blowouts?

- Is all internal wiring nicely bundled and clamped down (pull out drawers and look in behind them)?

- Can you easily get at the water pump?

- Does it have a winterization system built-in (i.e. plenty of shut-off valves in the water lines and the extra water lines for winterization)?

- Does it have heated tanks?

- Does it have room in the battery compartment for at least two large batteries?

- Are outside storage cabinets steel lined with carpeted floors?

- Is the generator installed in a place and in way such that it's sound is deadened enough to actually be pleasant to run for hours on end and is the generator powered by fuel from the main engine's tank?

- Is the roof one piece?

- Does the one piece roof have rolled-over edges instead of joints along the edges?

- Does it have a strongly built and strongly mounted roof access ladder?

- Does it come with built-in curtains to block off the cab area?

- Is all outside plumbing mounted up high so that none of it is visible when looking horizontally across the under-carriage of the rig?

- Is the generator mounted up high so that none of it is visible when looking horizontally across the under-carriage of the rig?

- Is the fresh water system capacity (including the waterheater) at least 45 gallons?

- Is the gray tank capacity at least 25 gallons?

- Is the black tank capacity at least 35 gallons?

- Is the propane tank filled capacity at least 15 gallons?

- Is there an outside cabinet capable of carrying long items such as shovels, beach umbrellas, fishing poles, etc.?

- Can you fully stand up in the shower?

- Are there roof vents in both the back and front areas of the coach - with one of them having a powered and reversible fan - so that you can maintain good ventilation throughout the coach's interior?

- Do the roof vents come with vent covers so that you can have them open in the pouring rain (even in wet weather you need ventilation inside ... without having to open a side window)?

- Is the floor only partially carpeted or not carpeted at all (it's difficult to get road grime out of carpets)?

- Can the batteries be checked without leaving the coach (in case of electrical problems in bad weather)?

- Is it easy to get at the back of the toilet to replace the toilet valve should it fail when on a trip?

- Is at least one interior 12V receptacle heavy duty so voltage drop is not too bad when using a heavy-draw 12V item?

- Does the coach's interior have "plenty" of 12V and 120V outlets ... everywhere?

- Is the dash radio piped throughout the coach's interior?

- Does the freshwater system have a built-in filter?

- Does it come with a spare tire ... and is the spare easy to get at?

- Does the awning come with a secondary safety lock so that it can never ever unfurl in high cross-winds on the open road?

- Is it's cruising range at least 450 miles (gas stops too often are a nuisance)?

- Does the built-in battery charger/converter have 3-stages for proper battery care?

- Is there a vented fan above the cooktop just for the cooktop so that you don't have to use a roof vent when cooking?

- Is the outside step automatic (a manual step is a REAL PAIN)?

- Does the outside step retract well up out of the way instead of hanging down where it can get hung up?

- Is there a battery boost switch on the dash?

- Is there enough of the vehicle's weight on the front tires (otherwise on-road handling will be poor)?

- Are all construction diagrams, systems' diagrams, and parts lists available online for the rig you're interested in?

- Where is the automatic battery charging solenoid (which engages when the engine is running) and how hard is it to get at for replacement?

- Can the driver's and passenger's seats be tilted nicely back for comfort when going down the road?

- Are the outside shore cable and sewer drain hose stored in there own exterior enclosed cabinet(s) that keep them up high out of the way and the weather?

[darrenlaiche]

Thanks to everyone for the Great info. Snowman and Ron you both "killed it"! We will use all of the knowledge you shared. Probably sooner rather than later due to a large tax deduction needed this year for our business. Thanks again to all.

[ron_dittmer]

TheLuvShack wrote:
Thanks Ron,
Your original post of this topic helped me narrow my selection. I chose a PC when I found a good used example at a very fair price. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.

You are welcome.

But please understand that there are other good brands out there that I would think compares to Phoenix Cruiser. I love the quality of ours for the price we paid brand new in 2007 but I would be surprised if it stands alone. A visit to one of the mega-size national RV shows would be very interesting for me to attend.

One special consideration when buying a new Phoenix Cruiser is the personalized service they offer selling factory direct. Then there is company willingness to deviate as their various floor plans allow. People have requested some interesting deviations of which the factory found some so good that they introduce them into later model years, or even as new models such as the 2351 and 2552 which were birthed that way.

Even if you bought a used PC, the factory is so very good about helping you through any issues you encounter. I recall someone bought an 8 year old PC with some kind of physical damage in back that was doctored up to be unnoticed but had serious structural issues. They drove it to the factory and Phoenix made it good as new without a hefty price to do it. They help old customers like me and second & third customers just the same. It's like you become a family member or something. That is unique in the motor home industry.

[TheLuvShack]

Thanks Ron,
Your original post of this topic helped me narrow my selection. I chose a PC when I found a good used example at a very fair price. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.

[Islandman]

We've been pleased with our ten year old Coach House, cost about half the price of a new model. They are one-piece fiberglass and the factory is a good source for used models, several good deals on Craigs List also. Nice thing about the Coach House is that our ten year old looks nearly the same as a much newer model, so they don't become obsolete like some lesser brands.

[ron_dittmer]

Ms"B"Haven wrote:
This is one of the best posts I have ever read. Thank you.

You are welcome.
🙂

[Ms_B_Haven]

This is one of the best posts I have ever read. Thank you.

[ron_dittmer]

New, used, or well used, when shopping for a conventional class B+ or C, the most important consideration is how it is constructed. This post outlines construction methods which are most affordable and methods that cost more, but are built to hold up much better to the elements and also the punishment of the road.

Some motor home manufactures offer different levels of quality through their various model lines. Instead of providing a list of brands to consider, it is best to identify what "Better" is.

When shopping for a motor home, don't get distracted with what I call "Eye Candy" or "Square Footage". You want to pay close attention to how the house is constructed. Water infiltration is the number one killer of motor homes, rotting them away long before anything is worn out. Once water gets inside, it is like termites. By the time you realize there is a problem, a lot of damage has already occurred. Also consider that mold & mildew can grow inside the walls which then you have a health hazard. My advise focuses on identifying a reliably well sealed motor home.

#1 BEST (Very Expensive, Can Be 1.5 times the cost of Second Best)
NO structural seam work. The brand Coach House is a fine example. It is seamless, made from a mold. The only places where water can leak is cutouts for windows, entry door, roof-top vents & a/c unit, storage compartments & maintenance access, all of which are in areas of very low stress. Because they have a seamless shell, these motor homes have a limited selection of sizes.

#2 SECOND BEST
Common, Affordable, & comes in Many Sizes so this is my main focus
I own an example of this type. My Rig Here manufactured by Phoenix USA.
Made in sections, but assembled in a way that greatly reduces the threat of water damage. Here are the good things you want to look for.

a) Structural Seams Away From Corners
When a motor home is driven, the house bounces, resonates, shakes, and leans countless times, representing a series of extended continuous earthquakes. Corner seams see greater stresses than seams located elsewhere. Corner seams are more easily split, especially when the caulk gets brittle with age & exposure to the sun. One extremely bad bump in the road can instantly breach a corner seam. Seams hold up much better when they are brought in from the corners in lesser stressed areas.

b) A Seamless Over-The-Van Front Cap
A huge bed above the van’s roof is the most vulnerable area of a motor home. No matter how well they are made, that long frontal over-hang resonates when the RV is driven. It is common for seams to split there, most troublesome with age & exposure to the elements. HERE is a more recent example, one of many I have read. The small front aerodynamic cap of a B+ design HERE eliminates the overhang which eliminates most of the resonation, along with most seam work.

There are a few conventional “C” Designs (big over-van bed) where that area is seamless. If you absolutely must have that huge bed, then look for a seamless bucket-like design. Born Free offers a seamless bucket design as seen in This Model. The Itasca Navion Here is another fine example. Some manufactures as of late offer a partial bucket design with fewer seams located in less-stressed areas. Some manufacture models like the Minnie Winnie and the Nexus Phantom utilize a compromising partial bucket design, making it a better choice compared to a fully seamed cab-over bed.

If you plan to accommodate more than 2 people, having that large extra cab-over bed will be extremely useful.

c) A Crowned Roof
Rain and snow melt runs off a crowned roof. A flat roof will sag over time, then water puddles around heavy roof-top items like the a/c unit. Water eventually finds it's way inside after gaskets & caulk have degraded from age, sun, and change in seasons.

d) Rolled-Over-The-Edge seamless Fiberglass Roof Sheathing
A single sheet of fiberglass as shown HERE that rolls over the right & left sides of the roof, down to the wall. The overlapping of fiberglass to the wall provides a good water seal and the fiberglass sheathing holds up better than roofs made of sheet rubber or thin plastic called TPO, which require more attention to keep your RV well protected.

e) A Five Sided Rear Wall Cap
A five sided back wall moves the seams around to the sides to areas of much less stress as seen HERE. The rear wall resembles a shallow rectangular cooking pan standing on it's side. Like the example, some rear wall sections are constructed with an integrated spare tire compartment and rear storage compartment. Not only are they convenience features, but that rear wall/cap offers a solid double-wall for exceptional strength which is more resistant to flexing the adjoining seam work.

Don't be fooled. There are a select few manufactures who add rear wall sectional styling pieces over an entry level rear corner seam design which gives the appearance of a 5-sided pan design. You can easily tell by noting the sections & seams between them and the flat back wall that remains exposed.

Bigger Will Be Weaker
The size & floor plan you select MUST FIRST meet your needs before this consideration.
The bigger the house, the weaker the structure will be. Consider two cardboard boxes made from the exact same corrugated material. The smaller box would naturally be stronger. It will be more resistant to bending, twisting, and other types of flexing. So if you are on the fence between models, the smaller one will be your stronger choice.

Potentially Troublesome Construction
Entry level motor homes are made with seams in corners and finished off with trim, including the massive cab-over bed. Their roof is flat and finished with rubber or TPO. They are most affordable, and come in all sizes. HERE is one such example. If considering this construction type, keep in-mind they require more regular care with bi-annual inspections. Plan to use a caulking gun now and then. When buying a used one, consider that you really don't know how well the previous owner maintained it. Buying new or used, that construction method will be counting on you to be a good non-neglectful owner.

There are also the rare exception of the Lazy Daze which has seam work in the corners, but the substructure and sealing method is of the highest quality that it holds up like a seamless body. It's excellent sectional construction methods are not commonly found in other brands. I am no expert on this, but I'd give it a #1.5 Almost Like Best

About The Chassis
The most popular is the Ford E-Series with the V10 engine. The Sprinter diesel is a popular alternative to the E350 in the smaller sizes. Also within this past year is the recent introduction of the Ford Transit. The GM chassis is not popular, but is a very good choice for the right application. Any of these chassis made since 1998 are real good, new or used. If you plan to tow a car or heavy trailer, be aware that the Sprinter & Transit will be least powered. People who tow with them naturally take it slower.

If considering a current-day “small” class B+ or C motor home, here is a comparison between the two current main contenders, the Sprinter with the V6 diesel engine and the Ford E350 with the V10 gasoline engine.

Advantages Of The Mercedes Sprinter With Diesel Engine
- Offers a 35%-50% improvement in fuel economy over the Ford-V10, when both are loaded and driven identically.
- More ergonomic driver compartment with more leg room.
- Comfort continues with a car-like feel & quiet ride.
- A grander view out the windshield
- Made by Mercedes which people are attracted to.

Advantages Of The Ford E350 with V10 Engine
- Given identical motor homes both brand and model, the Ford is around $13,000 MSRP cheaper
- The Ford V10 engine has 50% more horse power and torque
- The Ford E350 chassis handles 1430 pounds more weight.
- The E350 is able to tow a heavier load.
- The E350 rear axle is significantly wider which translates to better stability.
- In most places traveled, gasoline costs less than diesel fuel
- The Sprinter diesel has limited mechanical service shops around North America
- The Sprinter diesel is typically outfitted with a propane generator. Propane is a critical fuel for RV operations, and generally needs to be rationed when dry camping.
- This Next Point Is Debatable But Still Worth Noting....The V6 Sprinter diesel engine is not allowed to idle for extended periods. This limitation is detrimental when you need a/c but there are generator restrictions or you are dangerously low on propane, or you have a mechanical failure with the generator or roof a/c. The Ford V10 can safely idle for hours on end, heating, cooling, and battery charging, all valuable if you have a baby, pets, or health/respiratory issues.

You decide what your priorities are, and pick the appropriate chassis. There are some really sweet motor homes being built exclusively on the Sprinter chassis, such as the Winnebago Via, View and View Profile. Others like Phoenix USA build their model 2350 and 2400 on both the Sprinter and Ford E350. They will even build it on the heaviest duty E450 upon request for a nominal fee. People who request an E450 for a small motor home, tow heavier things like for example, a multi-horse trailer. You can even special order a E350 & E450 4x4.

There is so much cool stuff offered in recent years on the Sprinter and most recently on the new Ford Transit.

The Ford Transit Chassis
This chassis has the potential to dominate the class B+ & C motor home market in the smaller sizes. According to Ford's website, the Transit DRW chassis is offered in the 156", and 178" wheel base, and is rated as high as 10,360 GVWR. Ford offers a motor home package specific for the RV industry. It's diesel engine compares to the Sprinter in power and fuel economy, but is more affordable and is easily serviced at Ford service centers, just like the E350/E450. The cab has a much lower stance than the Sprinter making it much more friendly to get into and out from for people in their later years. It's more like a mini-van rather than a standard van. The Transit's lower cab also offers roomier over-head bunks that are easier to access.

The Dodge Promaster 3500 Cut-Away Chassis
This front wheel drive chassis is another recent entry in the RV industry. I am concerned over it's lack of load capability as reflected with single free-wheeling rear wheels. I have been reading posts written by new Promaster RV owners stating they are over-weight with just two people, some personal effects and food. They say they can't carry water and never a 3rd person. I would not be comfortable with such a limited load range in a B+ or C. This chassis does seem ideal for the straight "B" motor home market.

The Chevy 3500/4500 Chassis
Unfortunately this chassis is not more popular, primarily because GM sort-of gave up on competing with the Ford E350/E450. It offers more interior comfort than the Ford, but not as much as the Sprinter. It's power & weight ratings are a little less than their Ford counter-parts making them a great chassis for all but the heaviest of class Cs. They are also a little better on fuel consumption. One thing to keep in-mind, if you are counting inches in storing your rig, the Chevy is a little longer than the Ford by a number of inches which was critical for us with our garage as seen HERE with our Ford 2007 E350 rig. That could be the reason why the Chevy has a little more interior driver/passenger leg room.

Engine Power Ratings of Ford, MB-Sprinter, Chevy, and Dodge
Ford E350/E450 - 6.8L-V10, 305hp, 420ft
Ford Transit Diesel - 3.2L-I5, 185hp, 350ft
Mercedes Sprinter Diesel - 3.0L-V6, 188hp, 325ft
Chevy 3500/4500 - 6.0L-V8, 323hp, 373ft
Dodge Promaster - 3.6L-V6 (GVW only 9,300 pounds)

[ron_dittmer]

We bought our 2007 Phoenix Cruiser, model 2350 (the optional no slide-out version, now $4425 MSRP cheaper) SEEN HERE special ordered brand new 9.5 years ago and plan to keep it until someone takes my drivers license away. Being 58 years old, that day should be a long time from now. When not using our PC, it stays indoors in a controlled environment so it remains fairly well preserved, so much that it still smells new inside to this day. The tires still smelled new until about a year ago.

Phoenix Cruisers have a decent resale value which is good when buying a new one, but bad if buying a used one. Still, if you are open to traveling to another part of the country to buy one used, you can find a good deal, worth the inconvenience of travel and risk of disappointment once seeing it in person.

I think it's a good time to re-post my real long winded reply on RV shopping tips.

Ron

[gradygal]

We have owned 3 Phoenix Cruisers. In my opinion, you cannot beat them for their well thought out motorhomes, pricing structure and customer service after the delivery.

Our first was a 2350 on the Sprinter, then on to the 2551 and now we have a 2013 2910 (which we love). We got that dreaded disease "2 footitis" but now we have been cured.

Coach House is nice but way more expensive.

I don't know anything about LazyDays.

Judi