replacing master cylinder, 2007 E450

[deprived]

Hey, kids. I am attempting to replace the master cylinder on my E450. I let it run dry so I figured I take it out and bleed it. Then I figured, hey, as long as it's out, why not put a brand-new one in?

I've done other master cylinders before but this one is the mother of all pains.

I've got everything disconnected except for the inboard side MC bolt. It is hidden between a bracket that the shop manual makes no mention of and, frankly, I don't see any way to remove it.



I'm stumped.

Has anyone else done this before?

[j-d]

My pleasure!

What is the diameter of the MC you just installed? Same as the one you took off?

[deprived]

j-d wrote:
Great! We all await your impressions of your test drive and first RV trip!

As always, thanks so much for your help.

[j-d]

Great! We all await your impressions of your test drive and first RV trip!

[deprived]

Okay - bled and installed new MC. Installed new brake line, which was super-easy. I think the old line had funky threads or something.

The ABS light is still on but the pedal is definitely much better. I have a mobile brake service coming out next Tuesday to bleed and reset the ABS unit. The on-site job is 75 bucks. I'll take it.

[deprived]

Doing jobs like this, I am always reminded of the camp-song "I know an old lady who swallowed a fly."

She swallowed the cow to catch the goat,
She swallowed the goat to catch the dog,
She swallowed the dog to catch the cat,
She swallowed the cat to catch the bird,
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider,
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly,
I don't know why she swallowed the fly,
I guess she'll die.

I am frequently stunned by the lack of serviceability in modern cars, especially when I think about how easy it was to work on my 68 Pontiac or my 63 Corvair or even my 59 Rambler. Those were the days.

Anywhoozle, I got the new MC installed but I couldn't get the secondary/rear brake line to thread into the port. And, man, I really tried. So I took the new MC out and put the old one in just to see how the fitting behaved in it's old port . Again, I could not get the secondary line to thread properly. The fitting feels like it's starting to thread but then gets stuck. And then it pops out. I kept at it for an hour with no luck.

The threads on both the fitting look and the MC look okay, as far as I can tell, but it's just not threading. I had considered getting a double-flare kit and adding a new fitting to the brake line, if that's the issue. A new line is 20 bucks and a flare kit is 60, so I opted for the new line. It should be here in a few days.

I've done a couple master cylinders before but this one is a real bear.

[ron_dittmer]

tpi wrote:

ron.dittmer wrote:
The issue with the Taurus matches your description with the Mustang. I should get my service manual out on the E-series and see if Ford did the same there.

For people who are totally lost on what we are talking about, I will describe it as simple as I can, what it took to replace the heater core in my 1987 Taurus.

The heater core and the a/c evaporator are mounted side by side inside a common housing. The housing is bolted to the fire wall with the two tubes from each protruding through the firewall. The housing is huge as it also houses the blower fan. The only way to get to that huge housing is to remove the dash board. But to remove the dash board, you have to first remove the steering column. To remove the steering column, you first have to remove the ignition switch. To work with enough room, I removed the front seats. It went on and on and on.

When all those things are out of the way and you finally see the huge heater core housing bolted to the fire wall, there is a lid on the top to open it to get to the heater core. But you have to unbolt the housing from the firewall to remove the lid because the firewall has an over-hang into the area, I recall for the windshield wipers and such, which forces you to completely remove it instead of working with it in place. Doing that forces the mechanic to disconnect the a/c lines as well, getting involved with Freon reclamation and all that.

After I was all done, I was so ticked off that I wrote a technical letter to Ford over the entire experience, offering an easier alternative approach for repair sake that could be easily be implemented as a running change on the production line. I also had words to say about the layout under the hood. Everything was in the worst possible location with power steering a/c, and even transmission plumbing all over the place, completely avoidable if designed smarter.

I concluded in my letter stating something like "If I laid out circuit boards the way the Taurus was laid out, I would be an unemployment statistic."

A couple weeks to a month later I actually got a call from Ford, a technical person who went through each of my points made. I was shocked to get such a call with such detailed questions. Maybe people at Ford were complaining within and wanted to make their point that even their customers noticed the hodge podge they created.

Cool story..
This is one of the DIY challenges vs. a pro who works on the same vehicles repeatedly. The pro will eventually memorize the sequence, the pitfalls, and the procedures. Me, as DIY, seem to do these jobs just once-enough to have to experiment with socket extension lengths, dis assembly order or oddball sizes and angles etc. I am much faster on the second time through on some of these jobs.

Now that I'm senior with poorer eyesight, slower etc. I still like to do as much work as possible. But if I can't see clear path to disassemble and reassemble I reluctantly farm it out to someone who hopefully does.

Anyway my sympathy and admiration to those who tackle some of these stinker jobs.

I do think that some of the hodge podge was from "Reuse" of parts from other vehicles to keep the purchase price down.

There is always a logical reason for everything. We at the receiving end don't always see the bigger picture. We are simply left to deal with the after-math. :S

[tpi]

ron.dittmer wrote:
The issue with the Taurus matches your description with the Mustang. I should get my service manual out on the E-series and see if Ford did the same there.

For people who are totally lost on what we are talking about, I will describe it as simple as I can, what it took to replace the heater core in my 1987 Taurus.

The heater core and the a/c evaporator are mounted side by side inside a common housing. The housing is bolted to the fire wall with the two tubes from each protruding through the firewall. The housing is huge as it also houses the blower fan. The only way to get to that huge housing is to remove the dash board. But to remove the dash board, you have to first remove the steering column. To remove the steering column, you first have to remove the ignition switch. To work with enough room, I removed the front seats. It went on and on and on.

When all those things are out of the way and you finally see the huge heater core housing bolted to the fire wall, there is a lid on the top to open it to get to the heater core. But you have to unbolt the housing from the firewall to remove the lid because the firewall has an over-hang into the area, I recall for the windshield wipers and such, which forces you to completely remove it instead of working with it in place. Doing that forces the mechanic to disconnect the a/c lines as well, getting involved with Freon reclamation and all that.

After I was all done, I was so ticked off that I wrote a technical letter to Ford over the entire experience, offering an easier alternative approach for repair sake that could be easily be implemented as a running change on the production line. I also had words to say about the layout under the hood. Everything was in the worst possible location with power steering a/c, and even transmission plumbing all over the place, completely avoidable if designed smarter.

I concluded in my letter stating something like "If I laid out circuit boards the way the Taurus was laid out, I would be an unemployment statistic."

A couple weeks to a month later I actually got a call from Ford, a technical person who went through each of my points made. I was shocked to get such a call with such detailed questions. Maybe people at Ford were complaining within and wanted to make their point that even their customers noticed the hodge podge they created.

Cool story..
This is one of the DIY challenges vs. a pro who works on the same vehicles repeatedly. The pro will eventually memorize the sequence, the pitfalls, and the procedures. Me, as DIY, seem to do these jobs just once-enough to have to experiment with socket extension lengths, dis assembly order or oddball sizes and angles etc. I am much faster on the second time through on some of these jobs.

Now that I'm senior with poorer eyesight, slower etc. I still like to do as much work as possible. But if I can't see clear path to disassemble and reassemble I reluctantly farm it out to someone who hopefully does.

Anyway my sympathy and admiration to those who tackle some of these stinker jobs.

[DrewE]

It's not a difficulty that's limited to Ford by any stretch. Many vehicles have parts that are extremely hard to get to...perhaps to some extent, it's practically unavoidable if you want to have things somewhat compactly packaged. At least you don't have to cut an access hole in the floorboards, as I've read is apparently necessary on a few class A motorhomes to get at the brake master cylinder.

I had to replace an O2 sensor on a Chevy Prizm I had some years ago. This,of course, was threaded into the exhaust piping. To unplug the sensor from the wiring harness, I had to remove in order: the door sill trim, giving access to the knee bolsters under the dash, giving access to remove the center stack trim, giving access to remove the forward center console, giving access to remove the rear center console, uncovering the connector for the sensor. (I did also find a pocketknife I had lost a few years previously that had somehow managed to wedge itself under the center console.) It seemed a bit excessive to have to remove half the interior trim to change the O2 sensor, but there it was.

For another example (that I'm glad I've never had to do), google the instructions for replacing the heater fan blower motor in a Volvo 240. It looks like it would take me a full weekend.

[ron_dittmer]

The issue with the Taurus matches your description with the Mustang. I should get my service manual out on the E-series and see if Ford did the same there.

For people who are totally lost on what we are talking about, I will describe it as simple as I can, what it took to replace the heater core in my 1987 Taurus.

The heater core and the a/c evaporator are mounted side by side inside a common housing. The housing is bolted to the fire wall with the two tubes from each protruding through the firewall. The housing is huge as it also houses the blower fan. The only way to get to that huge housing is to remove the dash board. But to remove the dash board, you have to first remove the steering column. To remove the steering column, you first have to remove the ignition switch. To work with enough room, I removed the front seats. It went on and on and on.

When all those things are out of the way and you finally see the huge heater core housing bolted to the fire wall, there is a lid on the top to open it to get to the heater core. But you have to unbolt the housing from the firewall to remove the lid because the firewall has an over-hang into the area, I recall for the windshield wipers and such, which forces you to completely remove it instead of working with it in place. Doing that forces the mechanic to disconnect the a/c lines as well, getting involved with Freon reclamation and all that.

After I was all done, I was so ticked off that I wrote a technical letter to Ford over the entire experience, offering an easier alternative approach for repair sake that could be easily be implemented as a running change on the production line. I also had words to say about the layout under the hood. Everything was in the worst possible location with power steering a/c, and even transmission plumbing all over the place, completely avoidable if designed smarter.

I concluded in my letter stating something like "If I laid out circuit boards the way the Taurus was laid out, I would be an unemployment statistic."

A couple weeks to a month later I actually got a call from Ford, a technical person who went through each of my points made. I was shocked to get such a call with such detailed questions. Maybe people at Ford were complaining within and wanted to make their point that even their customers noticed the hodge podge they created.

[j-d]

Ron,

Mechanic friend was putting an A/C Evaporator in a Mustang. Told me it takes a trained, experienced, tech a day to do one. Probably the same engineering studio/concepts in most Fords. At least from one era.

You've probably worked on A/C controls. The Selector, the Tank, the Hoses, the Check Valve. You might've noticed a thread I had awhile ago where E450 A/C controls went out. It turned out pretty much what you described above has to be done to replace the Tank and/or the Check Valve. They're INSIDE the HVAC cabinet and the A/C has to be discharged/evacuated/recharged to get in there. Needless to say, I bypasses all that with an underhood check valve and tank then a new hose to the inside.

BTW, the NorCold Door Hinge Kit arrived today. Something to install before our next trip.

[ron_dittmer]

j-d wrote:
....I can say it definitely applies to a Ford dashboard area..

I bought a used 1987 Ford Taurus in 1992 with a bad heater core. When I was finished with the project, I was ready to put the car up for sale. To get to the heater core I had to remove the steering column, the dash board, the a/c Freon, and to give myself enough room to work, I also removed the front seats. That was not a good way to be introduced to my first (and only) Ford Taurus.

But afterward the car did serve my wife and later my son for many years. So my story does have a happy ending.

[j-d]

OP, the Reservoir probably is removable. I tried to look at ours today and couldn't see enough to be sure, but there are often roll pins holding the reservoir down through plastic "ears" on the reservoir notching into metal "ears" on the cylinder. Some replacement masters are sold without the reservoir. Might be possible to get the pins out of the old one, get the reservoir off, and see where you stand. Getting the new one assembled in reverse order, pins and all once it was in place, could be prohibitive.

Could you loosen the booster at the firewall and tip the assembly to gain some wiggle room?

[j-d]

A friend told me "Ford builds a vehicle like it'll last forever with no regard to serviceability." I don't think that's limited to Ford, but I can say it definitely applies to a Ford dashboard area...

Anyhow, nave, the OP has another thread where he says he's having the system bled out by a mobile professional with electronic equipment. That was needed because the master cylinder went dry while installing new calipers (and about 350 pounds of more new stuff...). He decided to replace the master since he'd done all the work and installed other new parts. So fortunately, your concern is addressed.

[navegator]

On many situations you need to remove several components other than the one being replaced so that you have access to the bolts and nuts, I do not know if Ford has a particular sequence for bleeding the ABS brakes, some units have bleed ports on the ABS control module that have to bee bled in a specific sequence.

navegator