Thoughts on manufacturers

[bobbyg123]

Since I'm in the market for a used Class C, out of necessity, I'm open to a variety of different manufacturers. Without wanting this to turn into a brand loyalty debate, what can you guys tell me about the different Class C makers?

I'm in the market for a 25-31' camper, and the makes I'm consistently running into here in the Pacific NW are Thor, Sunseeker, Minnie Winnie, Tioga, and Jayco.

Any input on these would be helpful.

[pnichols]

Ron, where are the dinettte, refrigerator, generator, propane tank, and several outside storage cabinets located in your PC?

In our Itasca these items are all located between the axles. This definitely helps to counter-balance the fresh water tank and 55 gallon gas tank - which are heavy weights behind the rear axle.

[pnichols]

Ron,

FWIW and amazingly so, our 24 foot E450 Itasca meets every criteria on my list, plus it has several other nice features and characteristics not on the list. I only became aware of what it offered after owning it for several years and after reading in these forums about the complaints others had of shortcomings in their other brands and models of Class C motorhomes.

It was by pure accident - or by pure blessing - that we wound up with such a combination. We did a no-no by seeing it and making the decision to buy it new on the spot from a dealer while at a local RV show. This was after looking for a year across the nation for a decent used small Class C on the heavier duty Ford chassis. It was an extremely rare basement model, but short in length, and nearly fully loaded options-wise - but had been sitting on the dealer's lot for a year before we bought it.

I'm guessing that it had not sold at the dealership for a year because it did not have any slides - but short with no slides is what we wanted for coach structure strength, long term leak proofness, and compactness in navigating to and fitting into small campsites if needed - and for occasional off-highway use exploring and drycamping. I study new RV specs on the Internet constantly, and the layout and specification combination we have has not been available new in any brand or model for several years now. In particular, Winnebago quit offering our exact setup in their 2006 or 2007 model years.

Those little just-right used Class C rigs our out there, but boy can they be hard to find. IMHO, so far all new models fall short. If we were younger, we might like a Tiger. If we were rich and younger, we might like an Earthroamer.

The main dislike with our Itasca is - it's widebody width when driving. Your PC's width is much preferred when driving. But when camped we prefer our wide body configuration.

[ron_dittmer]

pnichols wrote:

bobbyg123 wrote:
Since I'm in the market for a used Class C, out of necessity, I'm open to a variety of different manufacturers. Without wanting this to turn into a brand loyalty debate, what can you guys tell me about the different Class C makers?

I'm in the market for a 25-31' camper, and the makes I'm consistently running into here in the Pacific NW are Thor, Sunseeker, Minnie Winnie, Tioga, and Jayco.

Any input on these would be helpful.

If you are considering a small one close to the 25 foot length end of your criteria, make sure it's on the E450 chassis (Ford) or 4500 chassis (Chevy). The respective E350 and 3500 chassis are not heavy duty enough for a 25 footer.

I agree in that 25 feet is a good cut-off between a Ford E350 and an E450 chassis, a Chevy 3500 and a 4500.

An E350 chassis at 24-11" would be fine as long as the frame was stretched increasing the 158" wheel base to notably more. This would better distribute the weight between front and rear axles, properly utilizing the extra load capability of the front axle.

Most short rigs have too much weight on the rear axle, and too little weight on the front axle causing "rear end sag". The condition also negatively affects handling. Our 11 year old E350 rig is 23'-8" long with a Ford standard 158" wheel base suffers from it. I had to invest in suspension upgrades to get the handling just right. Our rear end sag is very slight, a non-issue.

pnichols......
I am not sure the balance of your list exists in a single motor home. I am trying to be funny, but it's not working well 🙂 It's good to keep such things in-mind if you narrowed your selection to a final two or three. Though I beg to differ on a few of your line items.

[ron_dittmer]

ernie1 wrote:
.....But after I found a one year old PC at an rv dealer and actually saw and touched the cabinets, interior and viewed the exterior, I was totally appalled at the shoddy workmanship and cheap materials that was used in the interior. The surfaces of the interior paneling had contact paper looking material that was already peeling and curling. The overhead cabinets above the driver/passenger looked like they were made of wood from a scrap pile in that they were made of different materials or woods and they did not match! The exterior trim and paint was already fading and the plastic pieces were brittle and curled. Needless to say we did not see a need to spend anymore time looking at PCs. Now there are going to be others who will have a comeback and say I'm wrong, as a matter of fact one party in particular who is constantly singing the praises of PCs will surely have something to say.

I think you are referring to me as the "one party in particular".

Wow, that would surely turn me off as well. I wonder why that one year old PC is as you describe. I am humbled by your finding. Some of your comments might be because you simply expected "better". But it surely seems something went wrong with that PC. Phoenix officially switched ownership around that time and I did read about some quality control problems. Maybe that had some influence. The two new owners Jim and Chuck responded quickly and seemed to get the company back on it's old rails.

Our PC HERE looks as good today as it did when we bought it 11 years ago. Other PC owners have similar experiences. We do "garage" our PC which helps immensely. Also our full body paint job helps with exterior plastics. Many plastic components on a PC are the same used across the RV industry. If they don't get painted, they "yellow" and even get brittle with age. But plastics yellowing one year later as you found is strange.

[T18skyguy]

Hi Ernie, If I buy again it will be a class A, but the tone and questions of my post certainly appears as though I'm interested in purchasing a PC. I just enjoy learning about all the products out there, but you are certainly right about checking any rig out before you buy. I find your opinion valuable, as I do Ron's. Ron has achieved something that we all strive for; and that is a rig we truly love and enjoy. It makes me happy to hear him talk about it. Maybe someday we could all be as fortunate. Don

[ernie1]

T18skyguy:
I think before you invest a lot more time researching the Phoenix Cruisers you should go look at one up close and check out the build quality especially the interior. Of course this might be hard to do because there are no dealers and sales only occur through the manufactuer. I was all set to travel across country to the factory and buy one after putting down a deposit. All the factory videos are very convincing and the factory seems very flexible towards your needs. But after I found a one year old PC at an rv dealer and actually saw and touched the cabinets, interior and viewed the exterior, I was totally appalled at the shoddy workmanship and cheap materials that was used in the interior. The surfaces of the interior paneling had contact paper looking material that was already peeling and curling. The overhead cabinets above the driver/passenger looked like they were made of wood from a scrap pile in that they were made of different materials or woods and they did not match! The exterior trim and paint was already fading and the plastic pieces were brittle and curled. Needless to say we did not see a need to spend anymore time looking at PCs. Now there are going to be others who will have a comeback and say I'm wrong, as a matter of fact one party in particular who is constantly singing the praises of PCs will surely have something to say. All I'm saying is do yourself a favor and check them(PCs) in person before committing. If I'm wrong,please tell me so.

[T18skyguy]

ron.dittmer wrote:

bobbyg123 wrote:

gemsworld wrote:
Some are put together better than others, and in some cases, better materials such as a fiberglass roof. Out of the brands you mentioned, I'd go with Winnebago.

Thanks. I should have been more clear on what I was asking for. Things like roof quality or other "extra" build quality touches that some manufacturers use over others.

As a general rule, given all else equal, a smaller rig would naturally be stronger than a bigger rig.....just like various sizes of cardboard boxes made of the same corrugated material. Also, a strong multi-layered rear wall will help to keep the box square.

Phoenix Cruisers are lower in height, narrower in width, have a very strong multi-layered rear wall system, walls-sit-on-floor construction, and aluminum framed openings, all combined keeps the integrity of the house together better than many other brands. The crowned roof with a single sheet of fiberglass rolled over the side edges, overlapping the side walls, along with the seamless frontal cap, increases protection against water penetration. Our 11 year old PC-2350 SEEN HERE is extremely well built. Owning it since new, I am still very pleased with it's durability, design, and workmanship. It's still a tight rig.....good quality as evident 11 years and 38,000 miles later.

Phoenix Cruisers are not common in the northwest, but they are there. The Phoenix Cruiser forum HERE has some members in Washington state.

Ron, I really like the Phoenix Cruiser, and I watched that video on how their made. There is no question as to their build quality. One of the features I really like is that Snap lock 30 amp connector to the outside of the rig. That's much better than stuffing the 30 amp electrical cord in the box. If I could, I would do that mod on my Jayco. One thing touted on the video is their recessed entry step. Yes it looks better, and probably more aerodynamic, but I think too small and could be a slip hazard. The larger entry step on my Greyhawk is actually an upgrade from the Redhawk. It accepts my whole foot, so I think that function is more important than form in that area. From the factory, can you get 30% off on a Phoenix Cruiser? Or are they tighter with their pricing? Don

[pnichols]

bobbyg123 wrote:
Since I'm in the market for a used Class C, out of necessity, I'm open to a variety of different manufacturers. Without wanting this to turn into a brand loyalty debate, what can you guys tell me about the different Class C makers?

I'm in the market for a 25-31' camper, and the makes I'm consistently running into here in the Pacific NW are Thor, Sunseeker, Minnie Winnie, Tioga, and Jayco.

Any input on these would be helpful.

If you are considering a small one close to the 25 foot length end of your criteria, make sure it's on the E450 chassis (Ford) or 4500 chassis (Chevy). The respective E350 and 3500 chassis are not heavy duty enough for a 25 footer.

Also don't overlook the subtle characteristics indicating superior design and construction that can minimize problems, enhance convenience, and make for easier maintenance and repair, such as:

- Is the chassis "clean" underneath ... with no sewer plumbing, generator frame or generator exhaust, coach steps, etc., hanging down lower than the bottom edges of the coach sidewalls (other than a trailer hitch in the rear)?
- Are the tire fender wells metal lined or only fiberglass or some other non-metal material?
- Are the cab access steps aluminum or steel instead of only fiberglass?
- Are the exterior storage cabinets steel lined or only fiberglass?
- Do the exterior storage cabinets have carpet lined floors instead of just a rubber material surface or a bare surface?
- Is the water pump easy to get at?
- Is all fresh water plumbing and the fresh water tank contained within interior areas that are exposed to the normally warm coach interior?
- Is there a full size spare tire and a place for it included in the design?
- Is the roof one piece aluminum or fiberglass?
- Does the roof material sidewall edges curl over the sidewalls instead of only butting up to the top edge of the sidewals within some sort of seam?
- Does the roof have a permanently and strongly mounted roof access ladder?
- Is the fresh water tank capacity at least 35 gallons, not including the capacity of the water heater?
- Is the grey water tank capacity at least 25 gallons?
- Is the black water tank capacity at least 40 gallons?
- Is the propane tank capacity at least 15 gallons (80% of which is actual propane capacity)?
- Does the as-designed factory battery compartment size have room for at least two 12V Group 31 batteries or at least two 6V golf cart size batteries?
- If the refrigerator is a 120V (on hookups) and propane (not on hookups) powered model, is it not installed in a slideout and is it's top vent exiting straight up out of the roof?
- Are the sewer tubes stored in their own compartment instead of in a square bumper-container in the rear?
- Is the rear bumper an actual steel one, or is it only a square bumper-container (see above)?
- Is there a convenient switch that disconnects the coach batteries from the coach's 12 volt system?
- Is there an engine starting boost switch on the cab dash to help start the engine from the coach batteries in case of engine start battery failure or weakness?
- Are the coach's 12 volt system fuses convenient to get at and protected from the elements?
- Is there enough real outside storage cabinet capacity or just "token" outside storage capacity?
- Is the built-in generator quiet enough and vibration-free enough to actually make pleasant use of for extended run periods?
- Can the driver see the water pump on/off light in the rear view mirror?
- Is the coach battery disconnect solenoid easy to get at?
- If the coach has a dinette, are the large areas under the dinette seats fully available for storage or is the propane furnace taking up some of the valuable storage space there?
- Does the coach have an operating automatic step?
- Do the roof vents have covers over them so they can be open in the rain for ventilation and to prevent high winds (when the vents are open) and the sun's UV rays from damaging them?
- Does the cabover NOT HAVE a forward facing window in it (you do not want a forward window up there)?
- When was the last time that the cabover clearance lights were carefully resealed?
- Are there several heating and air conditioning ducts ("distributed ducting)", or only a couple of heating outlets and only one centralized air conditioning duct in the ceiling?

As you can see from the parital list above, there are way more things to keep in mind and checkout when buying a Class C other than only interior layout. Many things contribute to long term happiness with Class C camping!

[ron_dittmer]

Camper Ken wrote:
They're all built too quickly with a lack of quality control to some level. After working as a service advisor at a major RV service center I've seen most of the brands and models out there and seen the many of the numerous issues. Overall in the "affordable" range for us middle class folks, I recommend Winnebago hands down. (That's what I own). As someone else said, stay away from anything made by Thor.

Ken,

You being in the industry says so much.....and I agree. My own observations are that an entry level model Winnebago is going to be your best choice for middle class affordability because they have excellent quality control practices compared to the other entry level brands of motor homes. Paying an extra $5000 to $10,000 more for a Winnie would surely be worth it.

Not everyone can afford nor wants to spend $30,000 to $50,000 more for a high-end, best quality motor home. And in most cases, the buyer won't own it long enough to matter.

But for people looking at used motor homes, especially older used motor homes over 10 years of age, I highly recommend consideration to those best-quality brands. Regardless of brand in the used market, how they were maintained and stored will determine if ownership will be a nightmare or a pleasure.

[Camper_Ken]

They're all built too quickly with a lack of quality control to some level. After working as a service advisor at a major RV service center I've seen most of the brands and models out there and seen the many of the numerous issues. Overall in the "affordable" range for us middle class folks, I recommend Winnebago hands down. (That's what I own). As someone else said, stay away from anything made by Thor.

[3TV]

My Forest River Class C was a 2015 3051s. Year one it needed the auto leveling system and the air conditioning repaired, which took a month to do, and was about $3000. Year two it needed the fridge replaced, which took two months to do, and cost $4000. Apparently the fridge doesn't fit through the door, so they need to remove a window and take the fridge out through the window to replace it, and labor cost are high. Year three the full body paint on the rear of the coach had bubbled and lifted off the fiberglass, which cost another $3000 to repair. And that doesn't count the minor stuff, like the slide needing realigned about once a year so that it would work, water leaks in the roof around the slide, all of the roof vents cracking and needing replaced, the valve on the LP tank failing, etc, etc, etc. It only had 6000 miles on it when we sold it, but it had needed repairs each and every trip out.

[ron_dittmer]

3TV wrote:
I've owned six RVs so far. 6. Forrest River Forrester (class C) Constant never ending problems, typically $3000 to $4000 every year in repairs.

I won't buy another Forrest River product, the quality is just terrible. So keep that brand off of your list.

I am curious. What year is your Forest River? I ask because I recall during the recession of 2008-2010, people with Forest River motor homes were complaining that their brand new rig had sunlight beaming inside the hanging kitchen cabinets where the wall met the ceiling. Apparently the roof had gaps to the wall. The warranty repair was filling the gap with caulk.....what a disappointment and nightmare it must be to own such a rig. That should be a warning to people buying 8 to 10 year old Forest River motor homes.

I understand sometime afterward, Forest River was bought out and "supposedly" product quality improved.

[3TV]

I've owned six RVs so far. I would rate their quality like this.

1. Arctic Fox - Northwood Manufacturing (Pickup camper) No problems
2. Wolf Creek - Northwood Manufacturing (Pickup camper) No problems
3. Lance (Pickup camper) No problems
4. Dune Chaser - Mckenzie (toy hauler) Minimal problems
5. Weekend Warrior (toy hauler) Frequent problems
6. Forrest River Forrester (class C) Constant never ending problems, typically $3000 to $4000 every year in repairs.

I won't buy another Forrest River product, the quality is just terrible. So keep that brand off of your list.

[bobbyg123]

One of the big issues with selecting any type of RV is regional availability. Not all makes and models can be readily found.

Sunseekers and Thor products are all over the place, new and used. I like some of their floor plans, but feedback on these brands is mixed.

[ron_dittmer]

bobbyg123 wrote:

gemsworld wrote:
Some are put together better than others, and in some cases, better materials such as a fiberglass roof. Out of the brands you mentioned, I'd go with Winnebago.

Thanks. I should have been more clear on what I was asking for. Things like roof quality or other "extra" build quality touches that some manufacturers use over others.

As a general rule, given all else equal, a smaller rig would naturally be stronger than a bigger rig.....just like various sizes of cardboard boxes made of the same corrugated material. Also, a strong multi-layered rear wall will help to keep the box square.

Phoenix Cruisers are lower in height, narrower in width, have a very strong multi-layered rear wall system, walls-sit-on-floor construction, and aluminum framed openings, all combined keeps the integrity of the house together better than many other brands. The crowned roof with a single sheet of fiberglass rolled over the side edges, overlapping the side walls, along with the seamless frontal cap, increases protection against water penetration. Our 11 year old PC-2350 SEEN HERE is extremely well built. Owning it since new, I am still very pleased with it's durability, design, and workmanship. It's still a tight rig.....good quality as evident 11 years and 38,000 miles later.

Phoenix Cruisers are not common in the northwest, but they are there. The Phoenix Cruiser forum HERE has some members in Washington state.