Charging Li-Ions batteries

[garyhaupt]

Reading up some on the topic and charging a bank seems to be an issue. Is anyone familiar with this application in the RV world? and or sail boats?

A bit of backstory...my S-I-L is planning to build a bank for his sailboat...to power his electric motor. He is offering to build me a bank for my RV and I have been 'encouraged' by one of our members, to do a bunch of research. So..doing that as well as asking here.



Gary Haupt

[StirCrazy]

pianotuna wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

vermilye wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
DAMHIK that Li can't withstand freezing. Where I live, leaving them disconnected may not work.

According to Battleborn the considerations for my lithium batteries are: Don't charge under 32°F, don't draw power from them under -4°F, and there is the possibility of damage to the battery case if there are vibrations when temperatures are under -15°F.

you messed me up with the american temps. -4F is -20C . who wants to camp when its that cold anyways. and that is the min temp for discharging under use. I found this link on Amazon.ca so the LifePO4 cells are in canada now, although we are getting the usualy rip off on pricing.

280ah cells

now I have to do some serious thinking I need to replace 4 6V batteries in my 5th this spring. if i go LA then I want to increase to 6 batteries at 240/battery for 235 ah would be 1440.00 for about 350ah usable. if I went Sio2 then it would be a bit more weight on the tounge and be 2-3000 for that 350ish usable AH . or for 1899, plus 100.00 for a real good BMS that does auto ballancing and everything, and a bit of DIY making a case out of material I have in the garage I would have 448 usable AH of Li at 1/6th the weight and 1/4 the size of my set up I have now. plus I could move them from the front "generator" compartment and ut them in the basment right beside the inverter and they would be heated there.

tough choice, I know I am knocking SIO2 out right away, there just to expensive and the benifits done warent them over a normal battery yet. if the price would come down to where they are competitve they might be a good option.

Did you have to change your converter for the LI batteries?

Steve

Hi Steve,

If you want CHEAP drop in lifep04 then surf here:

https://ablithium.com/

I got a quote of $400 Cdn for a 100 amp-hour jar with BMS.

The only li chemistry that would work for me is Lithium Titinate and they are an arm and a leg and your first born child.

vermilye did not mess up on temperature conversion. At -15 F the BB batteries may suffer vibration damage. That is NOT what happened for me.

As to camping at -20, I enjoy it and do it on a regular basis. It is all about being prepared and modifying your RV so that there are no issues.

Hi vermilye,

I believe BFL13 ran his microwave from ONE SiO2 at 20% state of charge. The inverter didn't like it much. I suspect that Li may be able to do that, too.

Never said he messed up, I said me messed me up posting the american temp and I had to figure out what it was. been to long since I used american temps.. grade school is when canada switched over to metric... its actualy funny miles, feet inches and such I still prefer standard imperial, but for some reson I like metric better for temp..

yes LI can run somthing like that right down to around 10% because of it more constant voltage as it discharges it wont set off the low voltage alarm in the inverter. that alarm is how I actualy found out my 6V GC batteries need replacing. At 50% I can normaly run the microwave with out setting the alarm off , this last trip at 80% it was starting to go off so after 14 years its time for new batteries. I am just torn between getting new GC batteries and increasing the number from 4 to 6 or 8 or going with the LI. that one you posted is a good price for some one that wants 100ah but for the link I posted it works out a little cheeper to make your own and get 560ah out of two batteries but if you can build them thats a deicent price. wish I would have seen that before I bought the GC batteries for my camper. heck if SIO2 were say 100 bucks ore than normal GC batteries they would be a no brainer also. not getting the size or weight savings that I would get with LI, but getting the higher discharge capability somewhere in between.

Ill have to look into Lithium Titinate never hear of anyone using that yet so I dont know what there about.

Steve

[pianotuna]

StirCrazy wrote:

vermilye wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
DAMHIK that Li can't withstand freezing. Where I live, leaving them disconnected may not work.

According to Battleborn the considerations for my lithium batteries are: Don't charge under 32°F, don't draw power from them under -4°F, and there is the possibility of damage to the battery case if there are vibrations when temperatures are under -15°F.

you messed me up with the american temps. -4F is -20C . who wants to camp when its that cold anyways. and that is the min temp for discharging under use. I found this link on Amazon.ca so the LifePO4 cells are in canada now, although we are getting the usualy rip off on pricing.

280ah cells

now I have to do some serious thinking I need to replace 4 6V batteries in my 5th this spring. if i go LA then I want to increase to 6 batteries at 240/battery for 235 ah would be 1440.00 for about 350ah usable. if I went Sio2 then it would be a bit more weight on the tounge and be 2-3000 for that 350ish usable AH . or for 1899, plus 100.00 for a real good BMS that does auto ballancing and everything, and a bit of DIY making a case out of material I have in the garage I would have 448 usable AH of Li at 1/6th the weight and 1/4 the size of my set up I have now. plus I could move them from the front "generator" compartment and ut them in the basment right beside the inverter and they would be heated there.

tough choice, I know I am knocking SIO2 out right away, there just to expensive and the benifits done warent them over a normal battery yet. if the price would come down to where they are competitve they might be a good option.

Did you have to change your converter for the LI batteries?

Steve

Hi Steve,

If you want CHEAP drop in lifep04 then surf here:

https://ablithium.com/

I got a quote of $400 Cdn for a 100 amp-hour jar with BMS.

The only li chemistry that would work for me is Lithium Titinate and they are an arm and a leg and your first born child.

vermilye did not mess up on temperature conversion. At -15 F the BB batteries may suffer vibration damage. That is NOT what happened for me.

As to camping at -20, I enjoy it and do it on a regular basis. It is all about being prepared and modifying your RV so that there are no issues.

Hi vermilye,

I believe BFL13 ran his microwave from ONE SiO2 at 20% state of charge. The inverter didn't like it much. I suspect that Li may be able to do that, too.

[BFL13]

The Can Tire 6v is a very good GC15 230AH at a very good price and would do you another round on the 5er with the same success you have had in the past. Makes no sense to change to more expensive batts unless you have a "fever". ( Like when you want a new car 🙂 )

The price of the SiO2 is somewhat negotiable. I got the second one at a big discount compared with the first. You get more of a discount if you buy more at a time. You have to talk to the person at the shop and ask for a quote. You can suggest you would be interested if only they cost X. It is like a bazaar. She says you are trying to starve my children, you say I can get those Can Tire ones for a lot less so I am doing you a favour buying these at all. You find out the real price, then decide.

If you have room for regular 6s or whatever in your RV there is no reason to get SiO2 or Li.

If you have a smaller RV and you want more AH, but no room for more batts, now you have a proper reason to see if the more expensive batts would solve the problem. Another reason is not just more AH but being able to run high amp inverter draws with the small battery bank that is all you can carry, which you can't do with the small bank of Wets or AGMs.

BTW it amazing this thread has not been moved!

[StirCrazy]

vermilye wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
DAMHIK that Li can't withstand freezing. Where I live, leaving them disconnected may not work.

According to Battleborn the considerations for my lithium batteries are: Don't charge under 32°F, don't draw power from them under -4°F, and there is the possibility of damage to the battery case if there are vibrations when temperatures are under -15°F. The BMS prevents the first two conditions from being exceeded.

Right now my pair of Battleborn lithium batteries are sitting at 82% with the battery disconnect switch open. They have been there since mid November, dropping .2V over that time.

While if I had a full sized RV I probably would have considered SiO2 batteries, in my 21' trailer weight savings is a big consideration. Switching from a pair of 6V lead acid to the pair of 12V lithium almost doubled my capacity & halved the weight. I love being able to still run my microwave with the batteries at 50%...

you messed me up with the american temps. -4F is -20C . who wants to camp when its that cold anyways. and that is the min temp for discharging under use. I found this link on Amazon.ca so the LifePO4 cells are in canada now, although we are getting the usualy rip off on pricing.

280ah cells

now I have to do some serious thinking I need to replace 4 6V batteries in my 5th this spring. if i go LA then I want to increase to 6 batteries at 240/battery for 235 ah would be 1440.00 for about 350ah usable. if I went Sio2 then it would be a bit more weight on the tounge and be 2-3000 for that 350ish usable AH . or for 1899, plus 100.00 for a real good BMS that does auto ballancing and everything, and a bit of DIY making a case out of material I have in the garage I would have 448 usable AH of Li at 1/6th the weight and 1/4 the size of my set up I have now. plus I could move them from the front "generator" compartment and ut them in the basment right beside the inverter and they would be heated there.

tough choice, I know I am knocking SIO2 out right away, there just to expensive and the benifits done warent them over a normal battery yet. if the price would come down to where they are competitve they might be a good option.

Did you have to change your converter for the LI batteries?

Steve

[vermilye]

pianotuna wrote:
DAMHIK that Li can't withstand freezing. Where I live, leaving them disconnected may not work.

According to Battleborn the considerations for my lithium batteries are: Don't charge under 32°F, don't draw power from them under -4°F, and there is the possibility of damage to the battery case if there are vibrations when temperatures are under -15°F. The BMS prevents the first two conditions from being exceeded.

Right now my pair of Battleborn lithium batteries are sitting at 82% with the battery disconnect switch open. They have been there since mid November, dropping .2V over that time.

While if I had a full sized RV I probably would have considered SiO2 batteries, in my 21' trailer weight savings is a big consideration. Switching from a pair of 6V lead acid to the pair of 12V lithium almost doubled my capacity & halved the weight. I love being able to still run my microwave with the batteries at 50%...

[StirCrazy]

pianotuna wrote:
DAMHIK that Li can't withstand freezing. Where I live, leaving them disconnected may not work.

who ever said you cant freeze a Li battery. they handle freezing just fine, just cant charge them when its freezing, you can still use them in discharge and storage situations.

Steve

[pianotuna]

DAMHIK that Li can't withstand freezing. Where I live, leaving them disconnected may not work.

[StirCrazy]

pianotuna wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
Steve,

Gary doesn't full time. Therefore heating the batteries during storage may be a serious negative.

not at all, during storage just disconect them. Li are very light compared to the othes so no issues in moving them. I store in my driveway pluged in, I would probably have the same issue with Li but with a discharge rate of around 1%/month I would just unhook them for the winter.

Steve

So you expect me to move 9 batteries in and out of my home every time I wish to go on a winter trip???

nope if you read my post I said I would just disnect them and leave them sitting outside in the 5th wheel. adding a new battory disconect switch that totaly disconects them would do the trick. if your at 90% youll be fine for the winter, but I would charge it up monthly and then discharge it back to 90%. most people that I have talked to just leave them pluged in all winter, but who knows if that is good or not.

Steve

[pianotuna]

time2roll,

Absolutely.

I still think I'd get a quote from this firm before I started doing a "roll your own".

https://ablithium.com/

[time2roll]

If this is a custom battery build.... OP will need to rely upon the builder to specify the charging specifications.

[pianotuna]

2oldman wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:
with Li but with a discharge rate of around 1%/month I would just unhook them for the winter.

Yeah. Li's can be safely stored at less than full charge, and really don't like being constantly charged. And most won't allow to be charged if too cold.

The storage information I've been able to glean suggest storing below 90% and not lower than 40% state of charge.

I think Li are great when cold weather is not involved.

[pianotuna]

StirCrazy wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
Steve,

Gary doesn't full time. Therefore heating the batteries during storage may be a serious negative.

not at all, during storage just disconect them. Li are very light compared to the othes so no issues in moving them. I store in my driveway pluged in, I would probably have the same issue with Li but with a discharge rate of around 1%/month I would just unhook them for the winter.

Steve

So you expect me to move 9 batteries in and out of my home every time I wish to go on a winter trip???

[2oldman]

StirCrazy wrote:
with Li but with a discharge rate of around 1%/month I would just unhook them for the winter.

Yeah. Li's can be safely stored at less than full charge, and really don't like being constantly charged. And most won't allow to be charged if too cold.

[StirCrazy]

pianotuna wrote:
Steve,

Gary doesn't full time. Therefore heating the batteries during storage may be a serious negative.

not at all, during storage just disconect them. Li are very light compared to the othes so no issues in moving them. I store in my driveway pluged in, I would probably have the same issue with Li but with a discharge rate of around 1%/month I would just unhook them for the winter.

Steve