Dumping Tanks in an Empty Full Service Site

[ronny7800]

Last week I was staying in a full service site in a national park. The park has hundreds of sites, only about a third of which are full service. The rest of the park shares 2 dump stations which are always lined up in the morning.

Each morning, though, I witnessed people pull into empty full service sites, dump their tanks and move on.

Thoughts on this? A good idea & something you would do? Or potentially creating a mess the next user has to deal with?

[BillyBob_Jim]

Here you go since you are condoning it.

[d3500ram]

BillyBob Jim wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
So did you holler about it when this happened to you? Or are you just projecting? And have no first hand knowledge?

I'd bet the farm if you were in the situation of the yellow in those pictures, you would be fine with it, but if you were the red you would be the first to call foul?

I would call foul... but only if it was THIS guy:



:B

[Dutch_12078]

After all of these posts from both sides of the issue, there remains just one overriding answer whether it's acceptable or not.

WITH PERMISSION.

No further discussion needed...

[BillyBob_Jim]

fj12ryder wrote:
So did you holler about it when this happened to you? Or are you just projecting? And have no first hand knowledge?

I'd bet the farm if you were in the situation of the yellow in those pictures, you would be fine with it, but if you were the red you would be the first to call foul?

[d3500ram]

toedtoes wrote:

d3500ram wrote:

toedtoes wrote:

troubledwaters wrote:

toedtoes wrote:

troubledwaters wrote:

d3500ram wrote:

toedtoes wrote:
....The truth is that each park should be able to allow or disallow dumping at FHU sites according to THEIR individual circumstances.

Do not assume it's OK to do because you saw it done somewhere else, or another park told you to do it.

Ask the individual park and abide by their answer....

Well said!

I agree with this. Unfortunately, many parks will make that decision base upon revenue stream, not practicality/facility limitations.

And that is their choice. Just because you don't agree with why doesn't mean it can't be their answer.

So in that case individual circumstances has nothing to do with it, it's just their "Choice". That's fine by me (their park, their rules); but I bet they'll lie about the reason for it.

And I'll make you another bet, the vast majority of the parks dumping down one hole ends up in the exact same spot as dumping down any other hole in the park.

They are basing it on their individual circumstances. Just not the circumstances that YOU deem acceptable. And if they lie about why they make their decision, that's their choice.

And who cares where it goes. It's their park, their system, their choice.

You're turning this into a "how dare they tell me no" argument. It doesn't matter their reason. FHU sites aren't built to provide dumping for folks not parked in those sites. If the park let's you do it, then yippee. If they don't then you go wait in line like everyone else and quit whining. If you don't want to wait in line then dump at home or only get FHU sites.

I have nothing more to add except I like to see how many responses that have many multiple quotes-in quotes within quotes we can get. But I am enjoying the conversation.

Just for you d3500ram... 🙂

Appreciate that, TT. How is your mornin going? I still can't believe some folks here thinks that the practice of dumping at FHU site is acceptable. Nice weather we are having here in Colo... mid 80's in the day, low 40's at night. 🙂

[fj12ryder]

So did you holler about it when this happened to you? Or are you just projecting? And have no first hand knowledge?

[BillyBob_Jim]

Sewage system design? Really?

Acceptable practice my rear end. Some of you folks really take the cake.

You book a full hook up site (red trailer)Every morning or afternoon while sitting at your fire ring (red arrow) or under your awning, along comes the yellow trailers to use the sewage connection on the adjacent site (blue arrow). While doing so they line up essentially blocking the loop roads.

I guarantee that anyone on this thread who say its an acceptable practice would be the first screaming bloody murder if they happened to be the person with the red trailer. All about me.

[westernrvparkow]

WTP-GC wrote:

Lantley wrote:

WTP-GC wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:

Apparently you have no comprehension regarding septic systems. That 3" or 4" pipe leads to a holding tank and all the solids settle to the bottom and the liquids flow thru perforated 1 inch pipes into the drain fields. To determine how much area those perforated pipes must cover the engineer performs a percolation test. They then use a formula that takes the percolation performance and the amount of liquid anticipated to determine the size of the drain field. Far exceed that liquid amount and the liquid doesn't seep into the ground and instead forms pools of waste water on the surface. As I previously posted many parks have several septic systems and the systems tied to full hookup sites are designed to process that waste, not the waste of multiple dumps in a rapid succession.

One of the interesting parts of this thread is very common throughout the forum in general: people believe certain things to be universal in nature. And this comment above is extremely indicative of that mindset.

As a matter of fact, I've spent my entire career, over many years, designing, building, expanding and consulting with people about their sewer systems. Don't make the mistake believing that your onsite treatment system in Montana is equitable to every other campground out there (as your comment suggests). The description of your system is different that every other system I've been involved with, so...

If it makes you feel any better we have those same drain field systems in Maryland. MD is a long way from Montana somehow drain field technology made it this far.

The general concept behind a basic septic system is piping into it, holding tank (for septage processing) and piping out to a drain field. Beyond that, there are nearly endless configurations, pipe sizes, drain field design, etc. based on location, code, and other factors. I’ve been to South America where the also have similar septic system designs, but their drain field arrangement was remarkably different. The point is that septic systems may look the same at the most basic level, but they vary greatly. I’ve worked with folks who have septic systems at their multi-use facilities, and their systems had to be designed to accept the dumping flow of dishwashers and laundry facilities all at once, plus the normal bathroom loads.

As I mentioned in an earlier comment...if no rules against it...

You need to make up your mind. When I gave a description of a typical septic system you said you have consulted and built systems for decades and never have seen one like I described. Now you are describing systems you have built and they are EXACTLY the same as I laid out earlier. You are even saying that systems have to be designed differently depending upon the anticipated loads. The implication in your "multi-use" facility system is that if the system was designed only for normal bathroom loads, the addition of dishwashers and laundry facilities would overload the system.
That is exactly what I was pointing out in regards to a system designed for full hookup RV sites. They are designed for the loads generated by the RVs in those sites, not for the additional loads of multiple RVs dumping. The dump station in many parks has it's own set of tanks and drain fields designed to handle that load. It is a very common design for RV park waste systems.

[wa8yxm]

In most. if not all campgrounds there is no difference between a dump station and a full hook up site when it comes to plumbing... Save for the dedicated flush faucet/hose marked "NON POTABLE"
I have on one occasion been directed by park management to use a full hookup site

And on another I was already on a full hookup but Management asked those using a dump station to use one they kept vacant for that purpose. And pull through sites in that park are scarce.

[JRscooby]

Most times I have seen a line at dump station it is a CG that most sites do not have sewer hookup, but expect most to dump at a common point. I assume that all cost involved is baked into the rate for the all sites. So I can't see how a camper pulling out of another site, into FHU site to dump, and then out, would change cost or revenue. The lagoon takes the same load. (Now, I know there might be extra cost if a mess is made, but nobody on this site would ever make a mess)
If a CG was seeing a high percentage of FHU sites MT, compared to the others, then it might make cents to limit everybody to the dump station. What I would think would hurt the CG more would be somebody that would not pay for on site water, but runs a hose to another site or community hydrant, or pays for a dry dark? site, and steals power from another.

[Lantley]

WTP-GC WROTE: "I’ve worked with folks who have septic systems at their multi-use facilities, and their systems had to be designed to accept the dumping flow of dishwashers and laundry facilities all at once, plus the normal bathroom loads."
With that in mind it should be apparent all drains and sewer systems are not the same. THe design,engineering and capacities can be very different.
A dump station is designed much differently than the sewer at a FHU site.
One must have a true understanding of the systems capabilities before treating a FHU site just like a dump station.

[WTP-GC]

Lantley wrote:

WTP-GC wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:

Apparently you have no comprehension regarding septic systems. That 3" or 4" pipe leads to a holding tank and all the solids settle to the bottom and the liquids flow thru perforated 1 inch pipes into the drain fields. To determine how much area those perforated pipes must cover the engineer performs a percolation test. They then use a formula that takes the percolation performance and the amount of liquid anticipated to determine the size of the drain field. Far exceed that liquid amount and the liquid doesn't seep into the ground and instead forms pools of waste water on the surface. As I previously posted many parks have several septic systems and the systems tied to full hookup sites are designed to process that waste, not the waste of multiple dumps in a rapid succession.

One of the interesting parts of this thread is very common throughout the forum in general: people believe certain things to be universal in nature. And this comment above is extremely indicative of that mindset.

As a matter of fact, I've spent my entire career, over many years, designing, building, expanding and consulting with people about their sewer systems. Don't make the mistake believing that your onsite treatment system in Montana is equitable to every other campground out there (as your comment suggests). The description of your system is different that every other system I've been involved with, so...

If it makes you feel any better we have those same drain field systems in Maryland. MD is a long way from Montana somehow drain field technology made it this far.

The general concept behind a basic septic system is piping into it, holding tank (for septage processing) and piping out to a drain field. Beyond that, there are nearly endless configurations, pipe sizes, drain field design, etc. based on location, code, and other factors. I’ve been to South America where the also have similar septic system designs, but their drain field arrangement was remarkably different. The point is that septic systems may look the same at the most basic level, but they vary greatly. I’ve worked with folks who have septic systems at their multi-use facilities, and their systems had to be designed to accept the dumping flow of dishwashers and laundry facilities all at once, plus the normal bathroom loads.

As I mentioned in an earlier comment...if no rules against it...

[WTP-GC]

westernrvparkowner wrote:

WTP-GC wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:

Apparently you have no comprehension regarding septic systems. That 3" or 4" pipe leads to a holding tank and all the solids settle to the bottom and the liquids flow thru perforated 1 inch pipes into the drain fields. To determine how much area those perforated pipes must cover the engineer performs a percolation test. They then use a formula that takes the percolation performance and the amount of liquid anticipated to determine the size of the drain field. Far exceed that liquid amount and the liquid doesn't seep into the ground and instead forms pools of waste water on the surface. As I previously posted many parks have several septic systems and the systems tied to full hookup sites are designed to process that waste, not the waste of multiple dumps in a rapid succession.

One of the interesting parts of this thread is very common throughout the forum in general: people believe certain things to be universal in nature. And this comment above is extremely indicative of that mindset.

As a matter of fact, I've spent my entire career, over many years, designing, building, expanding and consulting with people about their sewer systems. Don't make the mistake believing that your onsite treatment system in Montana is equitable to every other campground out there (as your comment suggests). The description of your system is different that every other system I've been involved with, so...

You have never been involved with drain fields, yet you spent your entire career designing, building and expanding sewer systems? .

That’s funny because I never said that...you’ve self-determined this to be a fact...which is WRONG.

[westernrvparkow]

dodge guy wrote:
I don’t see an issue. In fact I’ve done it before. The only thing you’re not doing is parking their and using it for days. Just dump and go. Just like a dump station.

You are infringing upon all the RVs that paid for a full hookup site. A continual request we get is to have a site far away from any dump station. Thankfully, we can reply that we have no dump station since we are 100% full hookups. But there is a reason people ask that question and when full hookup sites become substitutes for a dump station those people are going to be annoyed. It isn't just about you.

[westernrvparkow]

troubledwaters wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:
There may actually be a business reason behind having customers stand in line and wait for the dump station. Maybe the next time those same customers will value their time more than the few bucks extra it costs to rent a full hookup site...

This is the real basis of your point of view. All the stuff about drain fields, percolation tests, and multiple dumps in rapid fashion was just smoke and mirrors. It was all about the few extra bucks next time.

Apparently the only thing you ever see is greed. There can never be an explanation for anything that doesn't trace back to money. I suppose that would be the case if continual dumping did overwhelm a system since the remedy would cost money. Thankfully even though I was unaware that every action I take is only predicated on financial concerns it has worked out since I have avoided many of those problems. Or, to quote Gordon Gekko: "Greed is good, Greed works!"
As for whether or not septic systems can process an unlimited amount of waste, Use your own septic system or find a friend or relative with one and have a half dozen RVs dump into the cleanout one after another. Bet that will make you change your tune.