Ev charging in camps expectation of availability, cost

[SDcampowneroper]

Evs in our region are primarily the few commuters or as tows behind MHs to use as tour the area vehicles. Commuters recharge at home maybe at work, though I do not know of any companies here that offer that service yet,
What I want you to post is as you travel with an EV towed, perhaps someday as a tow, how do you expect camp power supplies to be equal to charging your vehicle. An argument that EVs popularity growth will be met equally by growth in power generation and distribution has merit in metropolitan areas with steady power use curves. where the increase is anticipated. Its not so well defined in areas with regional high power use times,

Camps built yesterday did not -could not - put in the infrastructure to meet such massive electrical loads that serving the rvs and EV recharging. Where once 4/0 al cabling served by a 200a main to x # 50a rv sites, will quickly by overloaded with only a couple of recharging vehicles.
How is an existing camp to meet that load, pass the costs on?
How is a new camp to design for that potentiality, Pass the costs on?


I do not have a dog in this fight, we sold our camp last year and retired.

[Chum_lee]

wapiticountry wrote:

Chum lee wrote:
As a business owner, (non clock puncher/salary earner) for most of my adult life, sometimes the cost of creating the appearance of doing well in spite of not doing well is worth the price. (of course, you cannot do this all the time long term, . . search Ponzi schemes) I don't decide for anyone else.

For example, if you own an RV Park (which I don't) with a 50% vacancy rate, IMO, you have to do something to boost sales because you are losing money on ALL the vacant spaces which cost you a fixed amount per space per night. If you let someone with an RV&EV stay there and even though they use an excess amount (beyond your estimated amount) of electricity, it's still better than getting nothing at all from a vacant space. Tell them they have to stay three nights for the given rate. This is casino thinking. In retail, it's called a loss leader.

Of course, . . . if you have a 10% or less vacancy rate, ALL THE TIME, none of this applies and you SHOULD charge a premium, especially for SPECIAL people. No freebies.

Chum lee

That Casino is selling something other than the loss leader item. (Really? Ever heard of a jackpot or an all you can eat buffet?) The RV park is usually a one trick pony, that being site rental. When you start discounting to fill sites you often lose revenue since those people that would’ve paid full price are now only paying the discounted rate. Plus there is nothing that guarantees a single additional site rental if they did offer a lower rate or reduced electrical charges etc.

IMO, the casino, as a business model, is not that different from an RV park. They sell space (rooms), services (hookups) and entertainment (neighbors). As I previously said, if you have a minimal vacancy rate, you have no need to offer freebies (discounts). You seem to fail in grasping that concept. It's when you DON'T, . . that's the problem. VOLUME! Have you ever heard people in the entertainment industry say, "There's no bad publicity!" Why? Because it generates buzz. (volume) In our current social media controlled society, people talk to each other all the time. IMO, when you gracefully accommodate potential good customers, they say nice things about you to others. (which further generates buzz/business) When you don't, . . . . well, . . . just look at this website. I'm not selling anything here. Initially, I hated most of my instructors in the school of "hard knocks", but eventually, . . . . I graduated, and . . . I'm still learning.

We could go on and on comparing similarities/differences. Just do what works for you.

Chum lee

[Grit_dog]

Bottom line, if you think it will pay off, it would be, sorry, should be based on quantifiable demand.
You, if you owned a campground, may have some data based on requests. And even the resident camp owner can’t figure out how to pencil it out, so for sure the 3 EV proponents on this forum don’t have a read on the market.

[Grit_dog]

So SD, you’re saying EV stations in and of themselves cannot be a profit center in your state?
Ok, then who cares....you’re not being singled out by the law unless you’re complaining because you think others are circumventing the “law.”
Are you saying you charged a flat rate for campsite and a per kWh charge to each and every camper based on individual meter usage?
I’m betting you didn’t. So why are you complicating the EV station issue?
And what % of customers have a toad and what % of toads are EVs? Because no one is pulling or lowering their RV with electricity yet.
Are you targeting the tent crowd in EVs? That’s rare, not many tent campers rolling up in Model Xs. And those that do probably aren’t going to stay in a RV park. Tents and RV parks aren’t really for the same crowd. And the leaf licker Leaf drivers ain’t coming to pay $50 a night to camp and charge their car.

[p220sigman]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that campground owners should be mandated to install chargers or infrastructure to support charging. If it doesn't fit your business model, don't do it. It is no different than any other business choosing to not carry a particular product or service. If I woke up tomorrow as a campground owner, I doubt I would rush right out and install chargers. Would I re-evaluate that decision periodically? Absolutely. Like anything else, as the market changes significantly, those businesses that want to thrive will change with them. I just don't think we are at that significant change point yet. Will there be a market for campgrounds that don't offer charging in the future? I'm sure there will be for many years to come. I suspect most of us will be long gone before that market dries up.

[JRscooby]

Timmo! wrote:
Business owners (and I are one), have to look at the services demanded by customers and balance it with the cost of providing said service. In most cases (but not always) the 80/20 rule applies to small business commerce: 20% of your revenue comes from 80% of your customers; conversely 80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your customers.

Assumptions:
Campgrounds have a 10% profit margin ($100 revenue - $90 expenses = $10 profit)
Commercial grade level 2 charging station fully installed costs $13,000
Annual costs to maintain charging station is $300

A campground will need earn $130,000 of revenue to pay for the purchase and installation for their charging station. ($130k X 10% profit = $13,000).

Each year the campground will need $3,000 of additional revenue to pay for annual operation costs ($3k X 10% profit = $300).

So, is the campground facility better served if owners allocate $13k of profits to patronize 1% of their customers (percentage of EV vehicles on the road) or should the campground owners allocate $13k of profits to service 99% of their customers that provide most of the revenue?

And remember, campgrounds were not deemed "essential business" and were slammed by COVID-19 closures last year, unlike the retail stores that remained open and have lots of dough.

But as a business owner you understand you also need to guess what demand will be in future. Others can witch about it all they want, but the percentage of EVs on the road, and by extension, in the campground will grow. But maybe not in your CG.

[Timmo_]

Oops, forgot to appease those "self appointed", official fact checkers.

Costs of commercial level 2 EV charger--
https://www.propertymanagerinsider.com/how-much-do-ev-charging-stations-cost/

Campground profit margin--
https://www.acacamps.org/resource-library/camping-magazine/dollar-cents-operating-camp

Phew!

[Timmo_]

Business owners (and I are one), have to look at the services demanded by customers and balance it with the cost of providing said service. In most cases (but not always) the 80/20 rule applies to small business commerce: 20% of your revenue comes from 80% of your customers; conversely 80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your customers.

Assumptions:
Campgrounds have a 10% profit margin ($100 revenue - $90 expenses = $10 profit)
Commercial grade level 2 charging station fully installed costs $13,000
Annual costs to maintain charging station is $300

A campground will need earn $130,000 of revenue to pay for the purchase and installation for their charging station. ($130k X 10% profit = $13,000).

Each year the campground will need $3,000 of additional revenue to pay for annual operation costs ($3k X 10% profit = $300).

So, is the campground facility better served if owners allocate $13k of profits to patronize 1% of their customers (percentage of EV vehicles on the road) or should the campground owners allocate $13k of profits to service 99% of their customers that provide most of the revenue?

And remember, campgrounds were not deemed "essential business" and were slammed by COVID-19 closures last year, unlike the retail stores that remained open and have lots of dough.

[time2roll]

You can charge by the hour for parking in a random spot that happens to have an L2 charge connector.
If your security camera covers the spot you can verify coming and going.

[SDcampowneroper]

valhalla360 wrote:

SDcampowneroperator wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

SDcampowneroperator wrote:
DrewE makes a valid point . I know when our electrical engineer designed the spur expansion wiring in our park, it was to nec code, a maximum of x units / 200a breaker. The 400a main to feed 3 200a mains for the expansion and a 200a sub( that used to be the main) were served by a 50kw ( is that the right term? ) transformer. 3 years ago, our power co. came to upgrade the transformer to a 75 because peak loads on it had been detected to 83 kv,
In the process, we discovered the 400a meter had burned into its contacts so it was necessary to step up to 600a ct metering, trench and place more cabling to reduce load on the original service panel. It iwas solely attribututed to the greater demand for larger rigs. Even that upgrape may be overwhelmed with a couple of EVs recharging.

Under SD law we could not pass those costs on for infrastructure, a landlord can only pass the actual cost /kw paid to utility, therefore infrastructure costs to site can only be recouped by raising site fee. Not fair to non users of high utility.

Any chance you have a rough idea what all that work cost...might give people an idea of how big of an issue this is.

One park we stay at has marginal power for hot summer days...The first issue is simply not having a big enough supply from the power company. The owner grumbles that it's $50k just to bring in power to the park. Actually upgrading the internal park systems would be even more.

$3600 for 600a ct meter panel and our cable downstream of meter, $1200 for rewiring ,load splitting, our labor to dig and clean up.

Did that include the transformers and all the other work or just the 600a panel?

. Power co. pays to the meter socket . After the meter socket all costs are customer.
In our state we cannot Upcharge for utility, can only charge customers what we pay / kw hr. As commercial rate is around .15/kw hr, a 90 kw hr recharge costs us $13.50,
To expand in the camp we owned, place maybe 4 2-3 level 2 charging ports in each section central to campsites is doable, at the loss of the campsite needed for the parking. See where that heads? A lost revenue positive campsite for ev chargers. A cost that cannot be passed on . Site rates go up to compensate for the lost site, and the law that camps cannot Upcharge users beyond a reader fee for utility.
The camp you write about with low incoming supply power to meters is common, on a feeder line va may not be up to par. The camp we owned has the luxury of having the main high volt mainline run through the camp so I assume the power co. can supply the juice, step up transformers, to camp distribution panels. After that, the camp has all the cost with no recovery except to raise site fees.
This is so wrong. costs that serve those that use them should be born by them, not by others.

[Super_Dave]

I don't remember where I saw it but recently remember seeing $6/day for approved charging and $25/day for not approved charging.

[wapiticountry]

Chum lee wrote:
As a business owner, (non clock puncher/salary earner) for most of my adult life, sometimes the cost of creating the appearance of doing well in spite of not doing well is worth the price. (of course, you cannot do this all the time long term, . . search Ponzi schemes) I don't decide for anyone else.

For example, if you own an RV Park (which I don't) with a 50% vacancy rate, IMO, you have to do something to boost sales because you are losing money on ALL the vacant spaces which cost you a fixed amount per space per night. If you let someone with an RV&EV stay there and even though they use an excess amount (beyond your estimated amount) of electricity, it's still better than getting nothing at all from a vacant space. Tell them they have to stay three nights for the given rate. This is casino thinking. In retail, it's called a loss leader.

Of course, . . . if you have a 10% or less vacancy rate, ALL THE TIME, none of this applies and you SHOULD charge a premium, especially for SPECIAL people. No freebies.

Chum lee

That.Casino is selling something other than the loss leader item. The RV park is usually a one trick pony, that being site rental. When you start discounting to fill sites you often lose revenue since those people that would’ve paid full price are now only paying the discounted rate. Plus there is nothing that guarantees a single additional site rental if they did offer a lower rate or reduced electrical charges etc.

[valhalla360]

SDcampowneroperator wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

SDcampowneroperator wrote:
DrewE makes a valid point . I know when our electrical engineer designed the spur expansion wiring in our park, it was to nec code, a maximum of x units / 200a breaker. The 400a main to feed 3 200a mains for the expansion and a 200a sub( that used to be the main) were served by a 50kw ( is that the right term? ) transformer. 3 years ago, our power co. came to upgrade the transformer to a 75 because peak loads on it had been detected to 83 kv,
In the process, we discovered the 400a meter had burned into its contacts so it was necessary to step up to 600a ct metering, trench and place more cabling to reduce load on the original service panel. It iwas solely attribututed to the greater demand for larger rigs. Even that upgrape may be overwhelmed with a couple of EVs recharging.

Under SD law we could not pass those costs on for infrastructure, a landlord can only pass the actual cost /kw paid to utility, therefore infrastructure costs to site can only be recouped by raising site fee. Not fair to non users of high utility.

Any chance you have a rough idea what all that work cost...might give people an idea of how big of an issue this is.

One park we stay at has marginal power for hot summer days...The first issue is simply not having a big enough supply from the power company. The owner grumbles that it's $50k just to bring in power to the park. Actually upgrading the internal park systems would be even more.

$3600 for 600a ct meter panel and our cable downstream of meter, $1200 for rewiring ,load splitting, our labor to dig and clean up.

Did that include the transformers and all the other work or just the 600a panel?

[SDcampowneroper]

valhalla360 wrote:

SDcampowneroperator wrote:
DrewE makes a valid point . I know when our electrical engineer designed the spur expansion wiring in our park, it was to nec code, a maximum of x units / 200a breaker. The 400a main to feed 3 200a mains for the expansion and a 200a sub( that used to be the main) were served by a 50kw ( is that the right term? ) transformer. 3 years ago, our power co. came to upgrade the transformer to a 75 because peak loads on it had been detected to 83 kv,
In the process, we discovered the 400a meter had burned into its contacts so it was necessary to step up to 600a ct metering, trench and place more cabling to reduce load on the original service panel. It iwas solely attribututed to the greater demand for larger rigs. Even that upgrape may be overwhelmed with a couple of EVs recharging.

Under SD law we could not pass those costs on for infrastructure, a landlord can only pass the actual cost /kw paid to utility, therefore infrastructure costs to site can only be recouped by raising site fee. Not fair to non users of high utility.

Any chance you have a rough idea what all that work cost...might give people an idea of how big of an issue this is.

One park we stay at has marginal power for hot summer days...The first issue is simply not having a big enough supply from the power company. The owner grumbles that it's $50k just to bring in power to the park. Actually upgrading the internal park systems would be even more.

$3600 for 600a ct meter panel and our cable downstream of meter, $1200 for rewiring ,load splitting, our labor to dig and clean up.






MOD'S EDIT: I fixed your quote for you.

[Chum_lee]

As a business owner, (non clock puncher/salary earner) for most of my adult life, sometimes the cost of creating the appearance of doing well in spite of not doing well is worth the price. (of course, you cannot do this all the time long term, . . search Ponzi schemes) I don't decide for anyone else.

For example, if you own an RV Park (which I don't) with a 50% vacancy rate, IMO, you have to do something to boost sales because you are losing money on ALL the vacant spaces which cost you a fixed amount per space per night. If you let someone with an RV&EV stay there and even though they use an excess amount (beyond your estimated amount) of electricity, it's still better than getting nothing at all from a vacant space. Tell them they have to stay three nights for the given rate. This is casino thinking. In retail, it's called a loss leader.

Of course, . . . if you have a 10% or less vacancy rate, ALL THE TIME, none of this applies and you SHOULD charge a premium, especially for SPECIAL people. No freebies.

Chum lee

[Reisender]

Lantley wrote:
My local Walmart installed charging stations. Granted Wal Mart has deep pockets but in the grand scheme of things someone at Walmart decided it was beneficial to attract EV's to their stores.

Places like Walmart or malls or factory outlets have to pick their equipment so the recharging speed is the same as a typical shopping trip length. So for an outlet centre if the typical shopping spree is a couple hours then maybe go with a 25 KW DCFC. Enough to dispense a reasonable amount but not too fast so the person would want to rush back to the car and disconnect to avoid idle charges. I think Electrify America has different speed chargers on some of their sites. I have seen as slow as 50 KW all the way to 350 kw for the Porsche crowd. Not sure what the charge price difference is.

Tesla does this with their 70 KW urban chargers in some locations. We have never used them but have seen them a couple times. Most Superchargers are 150 kw or 250 kw affairs.