Needless kaos and carnage on the Beeline highway...

[Desert_Captain]

Highway 87 aka the Beeline Highway runs north from Mesa {just east of Phoenix} north 75 miles to and through Payson continuing on to provide a good route for the RV crowd to the I-40 corridor {Flagstaff, Winslow and Holbrook}. From Mesa it is good 4 lane {with wide paved shoulders} of mostly divided highway. It does however have a lot of steep climbs {6 to 7 percent} as it winds up through the mountains.

We live in Payson and drive it often for our frequent trips to the Phoenix area. Yesterday I had an 1100 appointment at the VA Medical Center and planned some shopping while we were in Phoenix. The forecast accurately called for heavy rain throughout the day and they got that spot on.

About 20 miles south of payson and in heavy rain some fool from the shallow end of the gene pool blew by us doing 80+ mph. My bride and I noted that we would look forward to seeing this moron receiving a ticket somewhere down the road... he should have been so lucky.

On a long 6 percent downhill he lost control on a right hand sweeper. The rear end smashed into the concrete barrier which propelled him at a 90 degree angle across both lanes and the shoulder into the the opposite barrier. He spun back across both lanes and between the debris that used to be the front and rear ends of his car blocked the entire highway straddling the line between the lanes.

We were about 6 cars and one large truck back and in just minutes the Beeline was shut down with the backup stretching for miles {no alternate routes are available, everyone was stuck}. Volunteers cleared the debris and a dually pickup managed to tow the car far enough to finally clear one lane and the road was partially opened after 30 minutes.

As we crept past the wreck the driver was laid out one his back, a blanket covering him from his chin to to his feet. Eyes closed he was not moving and a man was carefully holding his head with both hands. I'll never know if he survived, frankly I doubt it but when I told another driver that he had blown by us at 80 + {in a 65 mph zone in heavy rain} he said that moments before the wreck he had just passed him doing closer to 90.

Ten miles further south we came across another bad wreck involving 3 northbound cars two of which looked to be totaled. Several hours later as we returned home we encountered 3 more wrecks... at the first multiple northbound cars had been cleared and we got by OK. 20 miles later the southbound lanes were closed due to another involving at least two cars and then we came across a large box truck laying on its side blocking all of one lane and a portion of the other but we were able to skirt around it.

Folks these were wrecks, not accidents. Excessive speed and and lack of the proper following distance were all too obvious throughout out our trip and the consequences were tragic. While the Beeline is generally pretty good road for all types and sizes of RV traffic give yourself plenty of time and think twice if the weather is severe {and it often can be}.

Because there are no alternate routes {frontage roads or intersecting highway} once the Beeline gets shut down due to a wreck it is difficult/next to impossible for emergency vehicles to respond. After 30 minutes there were still no LEO's or paramedics on the first scene and those that we encountered further down the highway were all involved in other wrecks.

Be safe out there... no reason not to. :E

Just sayin,

[Expyinflight]

We were also on the Beeline that day, and witnessed much of what Desert Captain described. It was a test of your nerves on that road that day, for sure.
We were on our way home from a trip to Oklahoma. Although we have homes in both Payson and Mesa, we store the motorhome in Mesa. Considered stopping in Payson, but decided to continue on. At one point the rain was so heavy you could barely see past the hood. Many made the dive to the side of the road to wait for the downpour to pass, as did we. But I was amazed at how many just went flying on by. They just will not slow down, or wait.

[2oldman]

I prefer chaos.

[Retired_JSO]

Grit dog wrote:

toedtoes wrote:
Most law enforcement, etc, no [img][/img]longer use the word "accident". Instead they use "crash". Because in 95 percent or more of incidents it was not an accident.

I am always amazed at how some people drive.

Because you're around alot of LEO's and "crashes?" Lol
Maybe in your infinite toes, you can tell us exactly what the differentiator is between an "accident" and a "crash." If any traffic law was broken, is it not an accident? If it was caused by someone else, is it not an accident because you can't be sure they didn't do it on purpose?
Nevermind, no one actually cares....
But we should start a thread about all the people who drive too slow, too. They cause accidents, I mean crashes, sometimes too.

As a matter of fact, most states in the south have now changed all traffic accident reports to crash reports. [img][/img]

[Grit_dog]

wa8yxm wrote:

I figure they are in a hurry to get where they are going.
Me. I'm in no hurry
What do I know that they don't know
Well I'm going to my funeral.. and I plan to take a long time to get there.
They are going to their funerals too... in the devil's own hurry.

Upon further review, I suppose I’m just jealous that getting somewhere quickly is a real world thing for me. Still.
But I’d still drive fast even if I didn’t have to be there “now”. Driving slow on the highway is boring!

[wa8yxm]

I have said this many times and now have to modify it a bit for I no longer have an RV.. I tend to drive max 65MPH The reason for this is the MPG meter on my car (Goes down fast above that) with the motor home it was 55-60 Same reason.

But more than that one of the zones I drive in is 60 MPH construction (Fines double if you speed) And I'll drop to 60 most times (They won't ticket me at 65, 70 perhaps. 75 yes but not 65) and 10T's go past me like I got the brakes on (That is folks who should have the licendse plate 1D10T)

I figure they are in a hurry to get where they are going.
Me. I'm in no hurry
What do I know that they don't know
Well I'm going to my funeral.. and I plan to take a long time to get there.
They are going to their funerals too... in the devil's own hurry.

[Desert_Captain]

OP here...

The Beeline gets an incredible volume of traffic especially on Friday's as folks from the Phoenix area flood it to access the Mogollon Rim, White mountains as well as Pine, Strawberry, Happy Jack and on to Sedona and Flagstaff. Conversely Sundays see same same volume of traffic only southbound.

On Sunday afternoons it is fairly common to see westbound 260 backed up for miles where it intersects the Beeline in the center of Payson. A mile east of the Beeline on the 260 is a Circle K gas station with a double dump station and from October through May it is the first and only dump station you encounter between Show Low and Payson. {the two up on the Rim shut down with the seasonal close of the campgrounds on October first above 6,000'}. Dozens of RV's are lined up awaiting their turn from Sunday morning throughout the day with the wait often being an hour or more. If I need to dump I head over on Tuesday morning,{ it is half a mile from our house} and usually find it deserted. :B

The point being while the Beeline is a convenient get you where you want to be highway choose you moments wisely. We get a lot of very nasty weather, it was closed from Mesa to Winslow last January for 4 days when most of the Beeline was inundated with heavy wet snow {we had 2.5'+ here in Payson}. It is definitely NOT a road you want to be on when the precipitation turns white. The robust monsoon {that we were blessed with this summer} also brings some serious challenges with torrential rain and extreme high winds that can really impact the winding, twisty Beeline as it climbs and drops precipitously.

Here is a shot taken of our C lass C in the driveway on January 26th.
Keep in mind we are just one mile east of the Beeline and half a mile south of the 260 at 5,000':



:E

[bgum]

I am not informed as to the volume of traffic on this road but it appears to have a lot of serious incidents.

[hypoxia]

Desert Captain wrote:
Highway 87 aka the Beeline Highway runs north from Mesa {just east of Phoenix} north 75 miles to and through Payson continuing on to provide a good route for the RV crowd to the I-40 corridor {Flagstaff, Winslow and Holbrook}. From Mesa it is good 4 lane {with wide paved shoulders} of mostly divided highway. It does however have a lot of steep climbs {6 to 7 percent} as it winds up through the mountains.

The speeds on that road have been surprising. I'm not on it that often but go in and out of Arizona on it with my RV. When the police holed up last year we were passed by lots of high speed traffic, probably 90 & 100 MPH. The police are back but spread thin and speeds seemed slightly lower.

We travel the US through lots of mountains & I consider that road from the Mogillion Rim through Payson to Mesa to be one of the best workouts for the driver and the RV. Lots of climbs in high temperatures to test your cooling system and patience and lots of descents to use the Jake Brake, exhaust brake and learn to keep the service brakes cool.

We like the Payson Airport (KPAN) Crosswinds Restaurant but we don't go there by road.

[Unobtanium]

toedtoes wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

toedtoes wrote:
Most law enforcement, etc, no longer use the word "accident". Instead they use "crash". Because in 95 percent or more of incidents it was not an accident.

I am always amazed at how some people drive.

Because you're around alot of LEO's and "crashes?" Lol
Maybe in your infinite toes, you can tell us exactly what the differentiator is between an "accident" and a "crash." If any traffic law was broken, is it not an accident? If it was caused by someone else, is it not an accident because you can't be sure they didn't do it on purpose?
Nevermind, no one actually cares....
But we should start a thread about all the people who drive too slow, too. They cause accidents, I mean crashes, sometimes too.

Why are you taking such offense at my comments. Geez.

And yes, I worked most of my career with law enforcement.

They stopped using the word "accident" because it implied there was no fault - and in most cases someone was at fault.

NHTSA started it and law enforcement and others have followed it.

https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/newsroom/crash-not-accident

So get off your high horse and grow up.

You like potato and I like potahto
You like tomato and I like tomahto
Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto.
Let's call the whole thing off

LOL.


"Nevermind, no one actually cares".....Exactly!

[noteven]

on edit - erased post dint notice thread is now about "crash" vs "accident"

[toedtoes]

DrewE wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

toedtoes wrote:
Most law enforcement, etc, no longer use the word "accident". Instead they use "crash". Because in 95 percent or more of incidents it was not an accident.

If any traffic law was broken, is it not an accident? If it was caused by someone else, is it not an accident because you can't be sure they didn't do it on purpose?

In some legal contexts, "accident" has the implication that nobody is at fault or bears legal responsibility. If a bolt of lightning struck a vehicle and destroyed it, that would presumably be considered an accident; but if someone ran a red light and destroyed the vehicle, that would not be an accident in such contexts.

In general everyday use, however, the word accident doesn't carry this additional connotation; it merely means something that was not done intentionally. Indeed, it seems to me that there's most often a bit of an implication that an accident could have been avoided with care or foresight. A toddler peeing his or her pants has an accident. Bob Ross putting a brush stroke in not quite the right place has a happy little accident. A speeding car careening off the road is in an accident, assuming the driver wasn't actually setting out to commit suicide or attempt a dangerous bit of stunt driving.

I personally don't very much appreciate people attempting to redefine the common, everyday meaning of words to match technical legal definitions. I'll continue to call entirely preventable but unintended misfortunes accidents.

The reason for the change of wording is that it was felt that using "accident" made it sound like know one could have done anything to prevent it.

In the OP's post, the driver of the vehicle was driving at an unsafe speed for the road and conditions - calling that an accident made it seem like the driver had no role and so it was decided to call it a crash. A crash may be an accident or it may be negligence or worse.

[toedtoes]

Grit dog wrote:

toedtoes wrote:
Most law enforcement, etc, no longer use the word "accident". Instead they use "crash". Because in 95 percent or more of incidents it was not an accident.

I am always amazed at how some people drive.

Because you're around alot of LEO's and "crashes?" Lol
Maybe in your infinite toes, you can tell us exactly what the differentiator is between an "accident" and a "crash." If any traffic law was broken, is it not an accident? If it was caused by someone else, is it not an accident because you can't be sure they didn't do it on purpose?
Nevermind, no one actually cares....
But we should start a thread about all the people who drive too slow, too. They cause accidents, I mean crashes, sometimes too.

Why are you taking such offense at my comments. Geez.

And yes, I worked most of my career with law enforcement.

They stopped using the word "accident" because it implied there was no fault - and in most cases someone was at fault.

NHTSA started it and law enforcement and others have followed it.

https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/newsroom/crash-not-accident

So get off your high horse and grow up.

[DrewE]

Grit dog wrote:

toedtoes wrote:
Most law enforcement, etc, no longer use the word "accident". Instead they use "crash". Because in 95 percent or more of incidents it was not an accident.

If any traffic law was broken, is it not an accident? If it was caused by someone else, is it not an accident because you can't be sure they didn't do it on purpose?

In some legal contexts, "accident" has the implication that nobody is at fault or bears legal responsibility. If a bolt of lightning struck a vehicle and destroyed it, that would presumably be considered an accident; but if someone ran a red light and destroyed the vehicle, that would not be an accident in such contexts.

In general everyday use, however, the word accident doesn't carry this additional connotation; it merely means something that was not done intentionally. Indeed, it seems to me that there's most often a bit of an implication that an accident could have been avoided with care or foresight. A toddler peeing his or her pants has an accident. Bob Ross putting a brush stroke in not quite the right place has a happy little accident. A speeding car careening off the road is in an accident, assuming the driver wasn't actually setting out to commit suicide or attempt a dangerous bit of stunt driving.

I personally don't very much appreciate people attempting to redefine the common, everyday meaning of words to match technical legal definitions. I'll continue to call entirely preventable but unintended misfortunes accidents.

[naturist]

My daughter, raised here on the wet side of the country, but now living in LA, reports that there are two kinds of drivers in the desert southwest: ones that are terrified of damp roadways and those who can't believe a little water makes any difference. The latter clog things up having wrecks, the former clog things up being too frightened to move at all.

On a serious note, I too hope the wrecks the OP reported killed no one, and all learned something.

Driving back from Richmond in the rain this afternoon, I, too, came upon a wreck. 3/4 ton flatbed towing an enclosed utility trailer on their sides in the median. Judging by the wreck and the marks on the pavement/divots in the grass, the trailer was improperly loaded and the driver didn't know what to do about sway.

Let these reports be a lesson to us all: pay attention, drive carefully, make sure the wheels stay on the bottom, and firmly planted on the roadway.