RV Engineering and Construction

[ThomasFour]

I spent this afternoon repairing a canned-food storage drawer on our toy hauler. It was obviously loose and not sliding correctly. Yet again, I discovered the poor engineering and construction of RVs. Based on the design and dimensions of this drawer, a common person would find it appropriate for 8-10 canned goods. In taking it apart to diagnose the problem I discovered the metal drawer slide was hanging off the side of 1" piece of soft pine with three 5/16" screws holding the whole thing together. There is no way that design was likely to last for any purpose, much less in a 7,000lb trailer bouncing down the highway at 65mph. This is hardly an isolated instance and such "8th grade engineering" seems to be the norm regardless of brand. I am amazed at the astronomical difference in engineering/construction of the average automobile (for instance) when compared to RVs. Even residential construction standards FAR exceed the craftsmanship in RVs. Like everything, I'm sure its an issue that boils down to economics. But its hard to believe RV companies can't produce a well engineered product with quality construction and still be profitable. Am I missing something?

[Veebyes]

If the foundation is junk there is no point in looking at the rest of the house, no matter how much it has been prettied up.

Can't put lipstick on a pig. It will always be a pig.

[Atlee]

But you are the exception to the rule. And I dare say most of the veterans of this board, will do the same thing. Pay a lot of attention to wheels, tires, chassis, etc.

However, at large RV shows, very few folks are on the floor looking at the undercarriage.

I don't look at construction, especially the chassis,at a RV show. I only start paying attention to construction/chassis if a floor plan actually peaks my interest.

goducks10 wrote:

Lynnmor wrote:

Atlee wrote:
One other factor plays into this also. Most buyers stress the bling inside, which can easily be seen, over the construction itself.

When you go to a large RV show, you will not see anyone bending down and looking at tires, brakes, frames, axles or springs. All the things that affect safety and reliability on the road, are not a consideration.

Follow me around. :).

[myredracer]

I crawled under a bunch of TTs at a show once taking notes and pics. One salesman wondered what the h*ll I was doing like I was planting a bomb or looking for trade secrets.

One thing I found is that not all Lippert frames are alike, even if about the same length and GVWR rating. Some have additional re-enforcement at the spring hangers and most have none. Some of them have the 3-piece welded up I-beams for the same equivalent lengths and GVWRs that have one-piece I-beams - I would never buy a TT with one of these flexible frames again. The only way to find out what they have is too look at one in person as they don't tell you in brochures or online. A few TTs have the BAL frame - I'd want one of those next time or an in-house made one like Nash has. TT manufacturers don't seem to list BAL frames when they have them.

I looked at a TT on display at CW a few months ago (brand name withheld). I was really surprised to find that even after subtracting tongue weight, the tires were loaded up to near their LRC rating. Same with the axles. The frame was the flexible 3-piece welded up one. To make things even worse, it had spread axles. Definitely a TT I would never buy. Had lots of bling which is what most buyers focus on.

Regretfully, sometimes you have to have been through frame problems to understand what can go wrong. I can't believe that they can build frames and not have any industry standards (ANSI, ASME, SAE, etc.) to have to comply with, no gov't inspections and no weight or length limit ratings. Some frames are so weak the the aluminum superstructure framing can be damaged from the flexing.

As an engineer, I'm appalled at some of the poor engineering and workmanship I've encountered. 'Nuf said otherwise I could go on for pages...

[Cloud_Dancer]

gsutton wrote:
can anybody verify that there are actual engineers working at these factories? they obviously don't use their products.

Not me. But, I'm guessing that there are NOT too many RV engineering problems that would require a certified engineer. Therefore, IMO they only occasionally hire an engineering consulting firm, on a short time basis.
I can vouch for how the end user becomes part of the "enginering" process. We field test the product, we report the problems that we encounter, demanding they do something about it! And, sometimes, they kinda backyard-engineer a modification in search of a solution.

[Veebyes]

Lynnmor wrote:

Atlee wrote:
One other factor plays into this also. Most buyers stress the bling inside, which can easily be seen, over the construction itself.

When you go to a large RV show, you will not see anyone bending down and looking at tires, brakes, frames, axles or springs. All the things that affect safety and reliability on the road, are not a consideration.

You had better follow me around too. First stop is to inspect for who the frame builder is. Check for reinforcement in the area of the spring hangers. Count how many leaves to the spring pack. Look for shocks. Go around the outside checking for fit & neatness of calking. If all of that sniff test checks out go inside taking note of how solid the steps are going in.

I treat boat shows the same way. First stop is the engine compartment to see how accessible routine stuff is.

[goducks10]

Lynnmor wrote:

Atlee wrote:
One other factor plays into this also. Most buyers stress the bling inside, which can easily be seen, over the construction itself.

When you go to a large RV show, you will not see anyone bending down and looking at tires, brakes, frames, axles or springs. All the things that affect safety and reliability on the road, are not a consideration.

Follow me around. :).

[gsutton]

can anybody verify that there are actual engineers working at these factories? they obviously don't use their products.

[Lynnmor]

Atlee wrote:
One other factor plays into this also. Most buyers stress the bling inside, which can easily be seen, over the construction itself.

When you go to a large RV show, you will not see anyone bending down and looking at tires, brakes, frames, axles or springs. All the things that affect safety and reliability on the road, are not a consideration.

[Cloud_Dancer]

I hope you are not blaming the Japanese for something that our RV manufacturers are doing wrong.
Now, if you're asking how come the Japanese don't enter the large Class A market, the answer is simply that there's not enough profit in it for them. Either the market is too small, OR the cost of manufacturing is too high. IMO the Japanese way to manufacture vehicles is to use robotics. And, the methods that you are forced to use in the making of large motorhomes (given the low sales numbers), pretty much dictates that we are stuck with what we have.
All I would ask is that the manufacturers give us our money's worth. But, I have to say, my own experience with not getting my money's worth happened back in 2003. What happened since then is that Newmar improved the quality of their product, but the price of their products went up significantly (to pay for the higher quality, I'm sure).
Does anyone here have any ownership experience with Newmar Dutch Star models in the last 10 years? Did you get your money's worth?

[burlmart]

Atlee wrote:
One other factor plays into this also. Most buyers stress the bling inside, which can easily be seen, over the construction itself. And couple this with most folks, me included, want as much trailer for as cheaply as possible.

seems like we are more willing to pay near asking price for our car than the RV. we sense the value in safety regs that raise the cost of the car, but feel that competition is helping to holds its cost within reason. plus, we need a car.

OTOH, we don't sense that RVs have safety or quality designed in, plus we don't need them. also, RV MSRPs are a joke. so, we don't sense value as w/ a car

[Atlee]

One other factor plays into this also. Most buyers stress the bling inside, which can easily be seen, over the construction itself. And couple this with most folks, me included, want as much trailer for as cheaply as possible.

bikendan wrote:

burlmart wrote:
what is the reason that car and truck reliability is up, but not for RVs?

basically NO foreign competition.

it was Japanese autos and European autos that were far superior to American autos, back in the day.
American auto companies had to step up their game to compete.

no such thing exists for RVs.

[bikendan]

burlmart wrote:
what is the reason that car and truck reliability is up, but not for RVs?

basically NO foreign competition.

it was Japanese autos and European autos that were far superior to American autos, back in the day.
American auto companies had to step up their game to compete.

no such thing exists for RVs.

[burlmart]

a guy at carmax said that none of the major manufactures can affofd to trail behind other competitors w/r reliability anymore, as compared to years past'.

what is the reason that car and truck reliability is up, but not for RVs?

[tatest]

It has to do with building to price points customers will accept. We would not be talking about small changes, e.g. like doubling cost. The automotive industry went from least expensive full-size cars built at $1500 cost (what GSA was still paying for them in the 1970s) to lowest price subcompacts at $12,000.