Volunteers and paid employees

[halfwright]

The park I am volunteering at hires part-time summer help and has some college interns. They all get a salary. They are in their late teens or early twenties, whereas I am seventy. I am doing maintenance (painting, building repair, minor electrical, plumbing). Often, the kids are assigned to work with me. The full time staff expects me to supervise and lead the team. Therein lies the problem. I do not feel that as a volunteer I should be telling the paid help what to do. I feel that the paid employees should have the responsibility. Am I wrong?

[crudeman]

DianneOK wrote:
I am sure, if you were serious, he would agree to meet with lawyers present. Now....lets move on.......

Yes teacher I will behave. :B

[Skid_Row_Joe]

halfwright wrote:
The park I am volunteering at hires part-time summer help and has some college interns. They all get a salary. They are in their late teens or early twenties, whereas I am seventy. I am doing maintenance (painting, building repair, minor electrical, plumbing). Often, the kids are assigned to work with me. The full time staff expects me to supervise and lead the team. Therein lies the problem. I do not feel that as a volunteer I should be telling the paid help what to do. I feel that the paid employees should have the responsibility. Am I wrong?

I'd ask for some hourly pay in addition to your other things furnished by the RV park.

[DianneOK]

I am sure, if you were serious, he would agree to meet with lawyers present. Now....lets move on.......

[SCR]

crudeman wrote:

SCR wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:

Mr. Camper wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Personally, I hate the double standard the government somehow allows. A private park cannot legally hire a "volunteer" and provide them with a site. We cannot legally hire someone and pay them a stipend. We have to pay minimum wage and cover that employee with workman's comp insurance. We have to follow reams of rules and regulations. Apparently, if it is the government, those rules and regulations don't apply.
Talk about owning a business that has the toughest competition in the world. A RV park competing with a state or national park has a competitor that doesn't have to pay their employees, doesn't have to pay for their facilities, doesn't have to pay taxes, can operate at a loss forever and doesn't have to follow the rules they created for everyone else. All that and they still have trouble putting out a decent product in many of their parks. As I have said in the past, if government is the answer, it must be a stupid question.

WOW! With strong beliefs like that, it sounds like your only option is to sell the place and move to Costa Rica. What's your asking price?

If you want to buy, you are welcome to PM me, provide me with the due diligence to prove you are a qualified buyer and sign a complete non disclosure agreement and I will be glad to provide you with the price and all the supporting financials. Just so you know, it will be a multi-million dollar transaction.

Excellent response ! :C

Ya right like someone is going to do this thru a PM on a RV site.jus sayin. Arrogance showing thru again.

He said to contact him through a PM... I don't think his intention was to proceed with anything through a PM other then initial contact. Jus sayin

[crudeman]

SCR wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:

Mr. Camper wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Personally, I hate the double standard the government somehow allows. A private park cannot legally hire a "volunteer" and provide them with a site. We cannot legally hire someone and pay them a stipend. We have to pay minimum wage and cover that employee with workman's comp insurance. We have to follow reams of rules and regulations. Apparently, if it is the government, those rules and regulations don't apply.
Talk about owning a business that has the toughest competition in the world. A RV park competing with a state or national park has a competitor that doesn't have to pay their employees, doesn't have to pay for their facilities, doesn't have to pay taxes, can operate at a loss forever and doesn't have to follow the rules they created for everyone else. All that and they still have trouble putting out a decent product in many of their parks. As I have said in the past, if government is the answer, it must be a stupid question.

WOW! With strong beliefs like that, it sounds like your only option is to sell the place and move to Costa Rica. What's your asking price?

If you want to buy, you are welcome to PM me, provide me with the due diligence to prove you are a qualified buyer and sign a complete non disclosure agreement and I will be glad to provide you with the price and all the supporting financials. Just so you know, it will be a multi-million dollar transaction.

Excellent response ! :C

Ya right like someone is going to do this thru a PM on a RV site.jus sayin. Arrogance showing thru again.

[SCR]

In real life I was a self employed contract property manager for all types of commercial properties including Highrise Office building, Hotels, Shopping Centers, apartments, Highrise Condo's and everything in between.

When I retired I decided to give A RV resort a try. I thought to myself how difficult could this be? I accepted a full charge management position and signed a 30 month contract with a absentee owner which I successfully completed.

I would manage any of the property types I have in the past with one exception. I would never manage a RV Resort again, it's not as easy as it sounds or looks nor is it as near as much fun as you would think it would be.

Tip of the hat to westernRVparkowner.... You have a tough job..

[SCR]

westernrvparkowner wrote:

Mr. Camper wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Personally, I hate the double standard the government somehow allows. A private park cannot legally hire a "volunteer" and provide them with a site. We cannot legally hire someone and pay them a stipend. We have to pay minimum wage and cover that employee with workman's comp insurance. We have to follow reams of rules and regulations. Apparently, if it is the government, those rules and regulations don't apply.
Talk about owning a business that has the toughest competition in the world. A RV park competing with a state or national park has a competitor that doesn't have to pay their employees, doesn't have to pay for their facilities, doesn't have to pay taxes, can operate at a loss forever and doesn't have to follow the rules they created for everyone else. All that and they still have trouble putting out a decent product in many of their parks. As I have said in the past, if government is the answer, it must be a stupid question.

WOW! With strong beliefs like that, it sounds like your only option is to sell the place and move to Costa Rica. What's your asking price?

If you want to buy, you are welcome to PM me, provide me with the due diligence to prove you are a qualified buyer and sign a complete non disclosure agreement and I will be glad to provide you with the price and all the supporting financials. Just so you know, it will be a multi-million dollar transaction.

Excellent response ! :C

[westernrvparkow]

Mr. Camper wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Personally, I hate the double standard the government somehow allows. A private park cannot legally hire a "volunteer" and provide them with a site. We cannot legally hire someone and pay them a stipend. We have to pay minimum wage and cover that employee with workman's comp insurance. We have to follow reams of rules and regulations. Apparently, if it is the government, those rules and regulations don't apply.
Talk about owning a business that has the toughest competition in the world. A RV park competing with a state or national park has a competitor that doesn't have to pay their employees, doesn't have to pay for their facilities, doesn't have to pay taxes, can operate at a loss forever and doesn't have to follow the rules they created for everyone else. All that and they still have trouble putting out a decent product in many of their parks. As I have said in the past, if government is the answer, it must be a stupid question.

WOW! With strong beliefs like that, it sounds like your only option is to sell the place and move to Costa Rica. What's your asking price?

If you want to buy, you are welcome to PM me, provide me with the due diligence to prove you are a qualified buyer and sign a complete non disclosure agreement and I will be glad to provide you with the price and all the supporting financials. Just so you know, it will be a multi-million dollar transaction.

[Dog_Folks]

Mr. Camper wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Personally, I hate the double standard the government somehow allows. A private park cannot legally hire a "volunteer" and provide them with a site. We cannot legally hire someone and pay them a stipend. We have to pay minimum wage and cover that employee with workman's comp insurance. We have to follow reams of rules and regulations. Apparently, if it is the government, those rules and regulations don't apply.
Talk about owning a business that has the toughest competition in the world. A RV park competing with a state or national park has a competitor that doesn't have to pay their employees, doesn't have to pay for their facilities, doesn't have to pay taxes, can operate at a loss forever and doesn't have to follow the rules they created for everyone else. All that and they still have trouble putting out a decent product in many of their parks. As I have said in the past, if government is the answer, it must be a stupid question.

WOW! With strong beliefs like that, it sounds like your only option is to sell the place and move to Costa Rica. What's your asking price?

Not that westernrvparkowner needs defending, but he does have some strong feelings on business and how he runs his parks. He does not mind saying so.

He has earned that right by being in business and all the "stuff" that it entails.

I once had an employee come to me and say he wanted to be in business for himself. Once I outlined the major steps that had to be taken, not mentioning money, he turned on his heel, left my office saying:" Never mind." Too much work for him I guess.

[Mr__Camper]

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Personally, I hate the double standard the government somehow allows. A private park cannot legally hire a "volunteer" and provide them with a site. We cannot legally hire someone and pay them a stipend. We have to pay minimum wage and cover that employee with workman's comp insurance. We have to follow reams of rules and regulations. Apparently, if it is the government, those rules and regulations don't apply.
Talk about owning a business that has the toughest competition in the world. A RV park competing with a state or national park has a competitor that doesn't have to pay their employees, doesn't have to pay for their facilities, doesn't have to pay taxes, can operate at a loss forever and doesn't have to follow the rules they created for everyone else. All that and they still have trouble putting out a decent product in many of their parks. As I have said in the past, if government is the answer, it must be a stupid question.

WOW! With strong beliefs like that, it sounds like your only option is to sell the place and move to Costa Rica. What's your asking price?

[Dog_Folks]

westernrvparkowner:

I refer you to the two following publications regarding site for work bartering in private campgrounds. You may be surprised and save some money too.

IRS rule (irc 1.119 (b))

IRS Publication 525 - "Meals & Lodging").

[westernrvparkow]

SCR wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:

Dog Folks wrote:
westernrvparkowner:

I understand that this is a very complex issue but:

I would ask to see some sources, as the 1099 issue has been discussed at least 50 times on other RV boards and the bottom line, as confirmed by the IRS, was determined as:

Private, For Profit Employer - You are an Employee
If you are working as an employee for a private, for-profit employer, there is a clear test to determine whether the value of the campsite they provide is taxable. If these conditions are met, it is NOT taxable and no tax form is necessary from the employer.

1) The campsite must be on-site at the employer's place of business.

2) Having you live on-site must be for the convenience of the employer.

3) Living on-site must be a condition to getting the position

Do your work campers fit the above conditions?

2 and 3 do not apply to most workamping positions. Yes, you could argue they were needed for overnight security, but proving it becomes problematic. Otherwise, there is no need for a workamper to live on site to work in the office, clean the restrooms, mow the grass, or do whatever else is done on a daily basis. As for requiring living on site as a matter of convenience, that is not at the employers discretion, it means the job cannot be completed by someone who does not live on the premises, such as Oilfield Gate guards who must be there whenever someone enters the premises, or something like a fireman at an oil refinery, where they would need to be at their duty station quickly and they tasks they would perform would be exclusive to their position and training. Hard to make that argument for a clogged toilet.
The bigger issue in my mind is even if you want to provide the RV site free of rent, you still need to provide wages if they are an employee. Paying minimum wage is not a discretionary decision. If people work for you, they must be paid for the hours worked, and those wages must meet the minimum wage requirement. Paying Wages come with the need to provide unemployment compensation, you must withhold taxes and you need to provide workman's compensation coverage. Those items come with significant costs. If others skirt those rules and requirements I am at a disadvantage. My costs exceed the costs those other parks incur. it may seem unfair, but an employer giving and an employee taking a site as the only compensation for hours worked, without reporting it as income is illegal.

It would seem that your issue is not the government but rather your competitors failure to comply with the regulations that cover all employment. While illegal and unfortunate as their actions may be it is the same as those that hire illegal immigrants for substandard pay.

It would also seem that the issue is a lack of enforcement on the governments part. However I don't see how they can enforce what they don't know about.

Regarding Social Security the only time the deduction for income is applicable is if the individual is under full retirement age and the income exceeds $15,720.00, for 2015. After full retirement age you can earn as much as you want without a reduction in your Social Security benefits.
Social Security Benefits

If your workampers are complaining about a reduction in benefits they must be under their full retirement age limit and have another source of income, unless your reimbursement exceeds the limit they can make. If they are complaining about having to pay taxes, that's just a fact of life.

Many RV workamper employers set a minimum number of hours worked to be applied to the cost of site. Many workampers don't like this because they will get a 1099 for tax purposes. If the workampers income, including the site fee, exceeds the deductions they are entitled to then they pay taxes, again a fact of life.

Since I retired from paid workamper positions I only seek security positions as a volunteer.

I would suggest you get with an attorney to see if you can come up with some job descriptions that would include a certain amount of security work or on call provisions to satisfy the on site regulations requirements.

I really didn't mean to come across as whining and complaining. The point I tried to make is the Government directly flaunts the rules and regulations they make others adhere to. As a private business I could not hire camphost like a state or federal park does, provide them with a site, not report that site as income, not cover that person with workman's comp insurance and not pay them minimum wage. The reason the government stepped in and established a minimum wage, established the workman's compensation program and created labor laws was to protect the worker from unscrupulous employers. Now, apparently, the only unscrupulous employer who can legally avoid those things is that very same government.

[Dog_Folks]

westernrvparkowner: This issue is getting way to complex for what I wish to debate. Sir, of course you can run your business as you wish, but IMHO you are off base on this. So let's just agree to disagree on this issue.

On another note: I again don't understand your compliant here about government campgrounds in competition with you.

As an experienced camper of over 40 years, IMHO your "type" of park and a government park(Sate, National, etc,) are really two completely different products and really not competitors.

If I want a "back to nature" experience I am going to patronize the government parks.

If I want a swimming pool, clubhouse social life, mini- golf of other amenities I will seek your type of private park. I am also willing to pay a higher rate for these amenities. Apples and oranges.

You said:" Talk about owning a business that has the toughest competition in the world." Believe me, every businessman feels that way about their industry. I did.

[SCR]

westernrvparkowner wrote:

Dog Folks wrote:
westernrvparkowner:

I understand that this is a very complex issue but:

I would ask to see some sources, as the 1099 issue has been discussed at least 50 times on other RV boards and the bottom line, as confirmed by the IRS, was determined as:

Private, For Profit Employer - You are an Employee
If you are working as an employee for a private, for-profit employer, there is a clear test to determine whether the value of the campsite they provide is taxable. If these conditions are met, it is NOT taxable and no tax form is necessary from the employer.

1) The campsite must be on-site at the employer's place of business.

2) Having you live on-site must be for the convenience of the employer.

3) Living on-site must be a condition to getting the position

Do your work campers fit the above conditions?

2 and 3 do not apply to most workamping positions. Yes, you could argue they were needed for overnight security, but proving it becomes problematic. Otherwise, there is no need for a workamper to live on site to work in the office, clean the restrooms, mow the grass, or do whatever else is done on a daily basis. As for requiring living on site as a matter of convenience, that is not at the employers discretion, it means the job cannot be completed by someone who does not live on the premises, such as Oilfield Gate guards who must be there whenever someone enters the premises, or something like a fireman at an oil refinery, where they would need to be at their duty station quickly and they tasks they would perform would be exclusive to their position and training. Hard to make that argument for a clogged toilet.
The bigger issue in my mind is even if you want to provide the RV site free of rent, you still need to provide wages if they are an employee. Paying minimum wage is not a discretionary decision. If people work for you, they must be paid for the hours worked, and those wages must meet the minimum wage requirement. Paying Wages come with the need to provide unemployment compensation, you must withhold taxes and you need to provide workman's compensation coverage. Those items come with significant costs. If others skirt those rules and requirements I am at a disadvantage. My costs exceed the costs those other parks incur. it may seem unfair, but an employer giving and an employee taking a site as the only compensation for hours worked, without reporting it as income is illegal.

It would seem that your issue is not the government but rather your competitors failure to comply with the regulations that cover all employment. While illegal and unfortunate as their actions may be it is the same as those that hire illegal immigrants for substandard pay.

It would also seem that the issue is a lack of enforcement on the governments part. However I don't see how they can enforce what they don't know about.

Regarding Social Security the only time the deduction for income is applicable is if the individual is under full retirement age and the income exceeds $15,720.00, for 2015. After full retirement age you can earn as much as you want without a reduction in your Social Security benefits.
Social Security Benefits

If your workampers are complaining about a reduction in benefits they must be under their full retirement age limit and have another source of income, unless your reimbursement exceeds the limit they can make. If they are complaining about having to pay taxes, that's just a fact of life.

Many RV workamper employers set a minimum number of hours worked to be applied to the cost of site. Many workampers don't like this because they will get a 1099 for tax purposes. If the workampers income, including the site fee, exceeds the deductions they are entitled to then they pay taxes, again a fact of life.

Since I retired from paid workamper positions I only seek security positions as a volunteer.

I would suggest you get with an attorney to see if you can come up with some job descriptions that would include a certain amount of security work or on call provisions to satisfy the on site regulations requirements.