12v and 110v and techquestions

[CheeseEater88]

Hello,

I have just started to look for my first RV travel trailer and I had a few questions.

First off I am am a bit of a tech lover. I do well with wiring diagrams and schematics, but I just can't find any details to what's inside of the new rvs I am looking at.

I am curios to the typical setup of travel trailers, I am currently really interested in the Venture RV 167vms, I like the pullout and the counter space. Dislike the skylights, and the TV mounting position(I can make a bracket to lower the TV). I assume its not common, maybe just a fluke, but the one I was looking at had wiring dangling free about 10" above the ground and the copper propane lines were looped lower than the rest of the frame


I digress, in my mind they have a 12v battery source, an inverter/charger, and a fuse box...then distribution out to the varied devices. My question I suppose would be what's actually there, and what runs on what? Are the slide out motors operated typically on AC or DC? The water pump? Ect..

Would it be easy to convert the system to 24v or 48v DC for the battery side of things? (it would make it easier to put lots of solar panels on) I can make a smaller loop or use a regulator to send 12v if needed to certain items. (I've been eyeing a 48v mppt/inverter/charger, as I wanted to possibly boondock, and stick crazy amounts of solar to the roof slowly over time...mppt is voltage and amperage limited based on the output voltage, so the higher voltage would allow me more pannels)

Again, I'm in the dark here, if someone with some first hand experience could give me a quick rundown on the typical travel trailer layout.

What ever I buy, I plan on keeping for a long long while, so I want to make it the best I can. That and I might full time in it off and on.

Thanks for all the help!

[BFL13]

You can't tell a Heinz pickle nothing.

[MrWizard]

You best do some more research
Several members have the triplite 1250 inverter
It weighs 22# has a big copper transformer in it and will do 2500w for 10 seconds and 1875 watts for 60 minutes
It is designed for heavy inductive loads motors etc.. and oh yes they make bigger ones
This is not your typical 3# voltage chopper

We don't care if you finance it or have cash, we don't care if you travel or stay put, you just keep Changing the requirements and stated use

If you really want to go out to some high altitude off grid place
You would be better served joining a forum of such people
Not asking RV'rs

And please explain to me where there is a 9000 ft high desert in the USA
I am unaware of this place

You don't have to take our advice, but why ask for it, if your not going to use, if you seeking approval For everything you say, or all your ideas, you came to the wrong place

[CheeseEater88]

I'm just responding to your criticisms.

Sq ft on the roof, number of pannels, skylights, inverter size, battery voltage a home.

You do realize that any inverter I add will be new to the unit, same with the solar system, same with the batteries. So any wiring or any setup will be added. Close looped or tied in it makes no difference. What is an issue is using products within thier design capacity. Using a 1200w inverter to run a microwave just isn't my cup of tea. Using components in systems in general that are not designed to handle the load is not something I want to get into. It makes me liable for anything that could happen, whether or not some substandard equipment was to actually blame or not.

Some people on this thread have been very helpful, making components suggestions, telling me to plan big because it's hard to upgrade again after you install a controller or start your setup.

I admit I don't know AC or renewables like solar very well. I'd like to think I have DC down. I've only had a bit of EM in college, and only like 3-4 classes dedicated to 12v systems, and only a few months devoted to vAC. But I came here to find out about what's needed to bring about a safe and proper system. I wouldn't have thought about the surge protector, and I would have probably been chasing the wrong style of all in one charger/inverter/mppt, for a but longer than I did. For whatever reason initially I was thinking I should have a 3000w inverter, I've knocked that back to 2000w (I did find an aims inverter with a decent pass through for ac). I'm still flopping in my mind about the 12 vs 24, but 200amps is much easier to do than 300amp was. The midnite sun mppt controller on either voltage will likely do more than any output the pannels can make.

The sky lights Im still bothered by, and asked the vendor about them, if it would be possible to have the factory not cut them into the roof. If they were more substantial and less temporary looking I might let them slide. It's a cheap trailer, it has some cheap features, I think the skylights are taking most of my focus because I It's one of my few gripes about it.

The rest of my gripes are about par for the course on the small trailer side, but this one despite It's skylights was the most pleasing to me amenity and feature wise for that weight class.

[MrWizard]

The closet thing to high desert 9000 ft
Is Bryce canyon Utah, and it's quit a bit lower than 9000 ft
9000 ft I'd going to be mountains unless your on a Peruvian plateau
And you have to climb mountains to be get there
Every thing you say seems to go off tangent

[CheeseEater88]

It's a high desert, snowfall is minimal, and what does fall is blown off of roofs and cars, sure there are the occasional wet snows, but very rare.

As far as a house goes, I'd much rather use insulated concrete forms for a foundation, with 2x6 for the walls. The extra ~2" gives a lot more room for insulation. I wouldn't want skylights in my home either... The really add to convection losses in the winter, and the r value would be much less than a wall. Going this way over an earthen home you can avoid all the problems with moisture and mold. It's very hard to seal out moisture in subterarainian homes. The forms allow a barrier on both sides of the concrete, while adding to the r value.

As far as the trailer goes, the r14 insulation all around and the fact that I planned on heating, sealing and insulating the underpinnings. I'm not really bothered by seasonal climates.

Also, it's not a vent, it's just a fixed piece of plastic over a hole in the roof. There are two skylights and a vent, I just don't care for the skylights.

[Almot]

CheeseEater88 wrote:
I don't plan on doing anything with the vent, it's a clear acrylic vent and it can easily act as a skylight. The skylight in the kitchen is rather large and to me unnecessary

Replacing a clear cover with (very common) opaque gray-blue is easy. Can't say about "large", don't know your RV model, my impression has been that vents are mostly standard 14".

[Almot]

Few people seem to get solar (size) right the first time because few are doing a proper energy audit before. That's why - go big. Install 30-50% more than you "think" you need. This is a better assurance of doing it right than energy audit, because it's not easy to do energy audit right - you have to make notes of battery charge and compare this against estimated solar harvest for your area on different days at different times of the year, aiming to harvest enough during the worst and longest spell of bad weather.

This is - if one of top priorities is to minimize or eliminate the use of generator. If generator use is a "no problem", or if this is a truck camper driven frequently, or if periods of offgrid stay are short, then audit requirements become lax and consequences of making a mistake are less serious.

Another reason why people can't get solar right the first time is that they are stingy, trying to save a few bucks on smaller arrays and cheaper controllers. It's a permanent install that you will have to live with for many years. Adding panels to PWM install is a pain. Upgrading PWM beyond 400-500W is a pain. Upgrading PWM to MPPT and adding more wattage is more pain yet.

9000ft with possible snow? Not my cap of tea. Like Mr Wiz said, low temps and snow cover will affect your solar a lot. And so will UV.

[MrWizard]

If you plan on a permanent location year round at 9000 ft
Then you need to start over
Build an earth insulated home lots of double pane skylights
Solar will be useless much of time covered in snow
Lithium is useless unless heated to keep them warm, they can't be charged when cold
A trailer at 9000 ft in the winter , everything will freeze up

[CheeseEater88]

I don't plan on doing anything with the vent, it's a clear acrylic vent and it can easily act as a skylight. The skylight in the kitchen is rather large and to me unnecessary, I plan on staying at high elevations(9000ft+), where 30mph+ winds are common place, the UV from the sun will likely rot the tires and the sky lights in <5 years . I couldn't discern what material it actually was, it looked like PET at first glance, very pliable very thin. I'm not saying they won't hold up to the wind, just that I rather not hear it flap, I don't need it, and its possible that it may leak in after some years years.
If it's any consolation, I don't like sun roofs on cars either.

[CA_Traveler]

Few seem to get solar right the first time but rather their solar evolves. Unfortunately it's often added on rather than starting from scratch. Maybe you'll get it right but maybe not.

Besides your research install a battery monitor when you first buy the trailer. This will allow you to accurately determine battery and charging usage. Nothing will beat real experience.

I don't understand your roof vent concern. You can always remove them and fill with insulation etc. And I don't understand your wind concerns. Many of us have driven and been if all kinks of weather and wind w/o issues.

[Sam_Spade]

CheeseEater88 wrote:
Mr. Wizard, I plan on financing it. I have no debt, and only some cash. My budget for everything is around $25k, the trailer is listed for 16k. Yeah I'm going to finance it, wish I could tell you I am independently wealthy.

I think you need to be practical here.
This is beginning to sound like you have a caviar taste on a fast food budget. Honestly.

A 16K RV likely will need more essential repairs than you think.
How do you intend to "finance" that extra $9K ?? That might be more difficult than you think.

I just think, based on a LOT of experience, that your plans are a bit too ambitious. This is supposed to be fun, not a burden like a second job.

[time2roll]

CheeseEater88 wrote:
all of the of the MPPT controllers I saw out there(till today) only allowed for 35v-85v open circuit voltage from the panels.

http://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/tristar-mppt-600v/

Is 600 volts enough? Does require 24 to 60 volt battery.

Midnightsolar will go 250 volts into a 12v battery.

http://www.midnitesolar.com/products

[Almot]

If you are one of those who like planning in advance - by all means do that. Call the factory tech people and ask them to email you the roof plan, or roof assembly drawing, whatever they call it. Print it out to scale, say, 1 mm on the paper = 1 inch of real thing, superimpose it onto the floor plane printed in the same manner, take a metric/imperial tape meter or ruler and have fun. Millimeters are easier to work with, at this scale. They do publish floor plans - without dimensions, so your reference points will be 96 inch exterior width (8 ft) and ~24" depth of kitchen counter.

The fact that 2000W inverter can draw 200 amps, doesn't mean that it will have to, i.e. that you will ever need 2000W inverter. Like Mr Wiz said, the biggest item is microwave and it draws under 130 amps DC.

People that don't use MW, can get away with 200W inverter (15A @12V) and 200W solar and their battery will be full as long as there is any sun. The cost of parts for such a small system will be under $350 including all solar components and inverter. I'm not a big fan of adding more solar later - it's easier and cheaper to do it right the first time. This is the 1st step of solar planning - energy audit, i.e. estimate your needs. Somebody said this already.

[MrWizard]

new 12v batteries, new location ?
just connect them to existing converter for charging, place inverter as close as possible for the power draw and short wires, remove batteries from tongue
(1) set of batteries for house and inverter

even with our MW we seldom pull over 120amps and only for minutes at a time
no way will you be running the A/C for hours, you probably never see that 200amp load , you will need that generator some times
we use ours almost every day

what you need to redesign and upgrade is the charge wiring between tow vehicle and TT
not re-engineer the house side