50amp outlet in the garage

[Goostoff]

Long story short here. I am trying to put a 50 amp outlet in for my 5th wheel. There are no provisions for a ground and no really good way to get one anywhere close by. Is it possible to hook up the ground in the service box just like you would for a standard 120V outlet where the neutral and ground both just get hooked up to the neutral block? I would really love to be able to run my AC when its really hot. Right now I keep melting adapters just trying to keep the 2 fridges cold. I cant even turn on the ceiling fan or it will just melt right down.

[Farmerjon]

That's great. Glad it was a success. We are getting ready to put power to a new barn that is 150ft from our power drop and our transfer box (for running a generator). Can't wait for when we can plug the camper in out there.

[Goostoff]

Got it all finished up and tested tonight. Plugged in the trailer and went in and turned on the AC and let it run for an hour. Felt my wiring inside the load center and it was good and cool to the touch. Touched the cord where itr was plugged in and it too was cool to the touch. Put all the covers back on everything and called it a success.

[Learjet]

Dave H M wrote:

wa8yxm wrote:
Code calls for a single ground basically at the meter (The first breaker box past the meter is where it goes) in the garage you shoudl have a SUB box. the ground bus in this is NOT bonded to neutral but is connected to the master ground back at the master box.. And that is how it should be.

And there is always a way to run a ground rod. even if it's solid concrete you need to drill through.

But since the proper way is to ground back to the main breaker box ground.. and that wire should already be there.. Don't worry about it.

Since i am curious about all the electrical beliefs, rumors and urban legend, I read through All the posts.

This is the one that hit the nail on the head. Way it is done here. :C

Having recently gone through this, if the sub-panel is in a detached building it needs its own ground rod. Yes, the sub-panel stays unbonded and tied back to the main panel ground.

[Dave_H_M]

wa8yxm wrote:
Code calls for a single ground basically at the meter (The first breaker box past the meter is where it goes) in the garage you shoudl have a SUB box. the ground bus in this is NOT bonded to neutral but is connected to the master ground back at the master box.. And that is how it should be.

And there is always a way to run a ground rod. even if it's solid concrete you need to drill through.

But since the proper way is to ground back to the main breaker box ground.. and that wire should already be there.. Don't worry about it.

Since i am curious about all the electrical beliefs, rumors and urban legend, I read through All the posts.

This is the one that hit the nail on the head. Way it is done here. :C

[Goostoff]

All of the service wiring from the transformer to the house and to the building in quesion was just updated 2 years ago. The old wire was the old copper stuff with the cloth insulation. There was a series of single wires all ran one on top of the other. There was no insulation even left on them and they got twisted up in a wind storm and tripped the main fuse out on the transformer. There was no better time to update then a storm damaged mess. I went to Menards tonight and picked up enough stuff to finish the job. Just need to bring home my electrical tools from work tomorrow night

[wa8yxm]

Code calls for a single ground basically at the meter (The first breaker box past the meter is where it goes) in the garage you shoudl have a SUB box. the ground bus in this is NOT bonded to neutral but is connected to the master ground back at the master box.. And that is how it should be.

And there is always a way to run a ground rod. even if it's solid concrete you need to drill through.

But since the proper way is to ground back to the main breaker box ground.. and that wire should already be there.. Don't worry about it.

[NinerBikes]

I'd hire an electrical contractor and get it all done correctly, and up to current building code, for yours and everyone else's safety. Poorly done electrical work burns things down.

You have a 50 amp plug, everything else midstream and before it should be brought up to code to handle 50 amps on 2 legs.

[beemerphile1]

With the antiquated system you are utilizing, I am wondering about the power to the out building. Do you have adequate wire size from the house to the building?

[mkirsch]

Drilling the concrete isn't that bad with a hammer drill and a good carbide bit. I remember trying to do it with a standard drill and a cheap concrete bit years ago and you could spend hours just making one hole, in a cinder block of all things! Even a cheap harbor freight 1/2" hammer drill is 10X better than any conventional drill.

Copper ain't cheap. You could rent a good hammer drill and have a lot less into the project than running a wire all the way to the far end of the building.

[DrewE]

westend wrote:
I'd suggest to break out the hammer drill, drill a hole close to the load center you installed, and install a ground rod. Yeah, drilling through old barn floors and feed lot slabs can be tedious but a ground rod with short path to the load center is an ideal situation. If any device does short to ground, the length of the ground wire will be energized. A jacketed wire won't be too much of an issue but if the ground wire is bare copper, any flammable stuff on it may ignite.
It sounds like there was little thought to bringing any new service up to a reasonable state by the owner or past occupants. Now would be the time to get it as close to good as possible.

So long as ground and neutral are properly bonded together at the panel, a short to ground will trip the breaker and the ground will not stay energized.

Remember that the ground system serves two distinct (but somewhat related) purposes. It provides a low-impedance return path for fault current so that the current doesn't go through your fleshy bits. It also prevents the overall voltage of the system from floating to dangerously high levels above the local "ambient" voltage. The first purpose can be served without the overall system being grounded at all, so long as the ground and neutral systems are properly bonded together at the main panel. The second is what the lead to the ground rod is intended to do.

Particularly in a less than ideal electrical setup like this one, it would be a good idea IMHO to use a double-pole GFCI breaker for the RV outlet.

[westend]

I'd suggest to break out the hammer drill, drill a hole close to the load center you installed, and install a ground rod. Yeah, drilling through old barn floors and feed lot slabs can be tedious but a ground rod with short path to the load center is an ideal situation. If any device does short to ground, the length of the ground wire will be energized. A jacketed wire won't be too much of an issue but if the ground wire is bare copper, any flammable stuff on it may ignite.
It sounds like there was little thought to bringing any new service up to a reasonable state by the owner or past occupants. Now would be the time to get it as close to good as possible.

[fla-gypsy]

Without properly sized wire feeding that 50A set up you will keep melting plugs or worse.

[Vulcan_Rider]

Goostoff wrote:

Unfortunately you are trying to make it a lot easier than it is.

Sorry but your explanation wasn't totally clear....at least not to me.

With a run that long, you need a HEAVY wire. I think I'd consider a #8 minimum.

Good luck with your project.

P.S. Might also want to visit the transformer pole and be sure the ground wire there is still intact. Things like lawn mowers tend to cut/break them loose over time.

[Goostoff]

Vulcan Rider wrote:

KD4UPL wrote:
To meet code you need to drive a rod at the garage and ground the panel.

LIke a lot of other problems posted here......you are making this a lot harder than it really IS.

The 3 existing wires have to get into the building through some kind of a hole.....right ?? Drive a ground rod OUTSIDE near that hole and run the ground wire into the building through the same hole that the other wires already use. If necessary, chip out a little mortar or sealant to make room.

If you trace the feed wires back to a pole, there should be a ground rod at that pole, connected up to the transformer. That's where the real ground/neutral makes it's connection.

Unfortunately you are trying to make it a lot easier than it is. The hole where the wires enter the building are 15 feet in the air on the side of the building. There is concrete everywhere inside and out. This building sits on a concrete feed lot. There is no dirt for 75 feet any direction. The transformer for this property if behind the house on the other side of the road.

On the bright side of all this, I called the landlord and told him of my problem. He started laughing and said, "now you know how I felt 15 years ago when I was trying to hook up my electric fence." He then went on to explain to me that he had a ground rod intalled in the far corner of the building and if I had a few days to wait he would move all the junk out of the way so I could tap into it. Now I just need to go buy a ground rod clamp and about 60 feel of ground wire.:B