70 amp charger cooking 12v LEDs?

[DiskDoctr]

Will using one of the upgraded 70amp Progressive Dynamics charger/converters fry my new 12v LEDs (unregulated version)?

I've seen talk of leaving the old converter in place, deck mounting the new one close to the battery, etc, but don't these interfere with each other?

Do you turn the original one off?

The new converters are 14.8v, will that hurt the LEDs?

The LEDs I ordered to upgrade out new-to-us camper are superb color and light, same model and seller as our hybrid, but they only come non-regulated.

Is there any wisdom to adding a large inline voltage regulator between the new battery and the distribution panel to protect LEDs, slide motors, etc?

Then run a second heavier set of wires from the PDC to the battery?

That would send 14.8v from the PD to the battery for charging, but the battery to distribution panel leg would only be connected through the existing, single "charging/power" wires THROUGH a new voltage regulator.

It seems to me this is how a good system *should* be designed anyways?

I asked some similar questions in a different section, but didn't get these answers. I should have posted in this section.

I am looking to upgrade our 8955 to PD 9270C

70 Amp RV Converter/Charger
The PD9270C-14.8, 70-amp power converter is designed to provide reliable filtered DC power for batteries that require a higher boost/bulk voltage such as Trojan and others. The PD9270C-14.8 converter also provides safe and rapid recharging of RV batteries. Built-in features such as electronic current limiting, reverse battery protection, high voltage protection, low voltage operation, and over temperature shut down ensure long-term reliability. The built-in Charge Wizard is a microprocessor-controlled system that constantly monitors the battery voltage and ensures a rapid; yet, safe, recharge. The Charge Wizard can select one of three charging voltages and one of four operating modes depending on the condition and use of the battery.

Features:

Built-in Charge Wizard
Reverse Battery Protection
Delivers filtered DC power to all 12 Volt lighting and appliance circuits, providing safe and reliable service
Electronic Current Limiting
Low line Voltage Protection
Variable speed intelligent Cooling Fan
High Voltage Protection
Automatic thermal shutdown
Built-in accessory port for the Converter Status Remote Pendant
2 year limited warranty

Input: 105-130 VAC, 1250 Watts
Output: 13.6 VDC, 70 Amps
Dimensions: 3.6" X 8 X 9
Weight: 5.8 lbs.

[DiskDoctr]

Huntindog wrote:
I had a range vent fan on one circuit I wanted LEDs on. I measured the amp draw of the fan. I forget the figure, but it was not as high as I thiught it would be. I do know that I have two 3 amp regulators on LED circuits, and One 5 amp for the range fan and LEDs.. BTW, I reduced the fuse sizes to match what the regulators were rated for.
It probably can be done on yours as well.
So I would not give up yet.

When I feel better (hopefully the next day or so) I'll get out in the camper and start taking measurements on the circuits for the Before measurements.

I don't have the full layout of all the equipment yet, either, in this new to us camper.

I saw about a $50 unit that was a voltage regulator, but can't find the link now...

[NinerBikes]

I have a QRP ham radio that while listening pulls about 180 to 190 mAh. It runs at from 15.0 to 10.0V From 15 to 14V at about 3000 mah, it will transmit at 15w under voltage sag. From 14.0V to 12.0V, it will transmit at 10w. Under 12.0V, it will automatically drop down to 5w.

Since I do remote field operations, I've bought a 4S Li Poly battery that starts out at 16.8V, drops down and runs at 14.8V for a long time, then the V drops off and under 12.0v I will be at 5w.

I want a set of diodes in series that will handle 3 to 4 amps, with enough diodes in series that it will drop the V down from 16.8 to 15.3V or slightly less, as there is also a protection reverse current diode in the radio that drops input voltage another 0.3V. I want to be able to run at 15 watts as long as possible when doing activations while remote.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

"While Mex quotes considerably lower forward voltage drop of .4-.5V for non Schottky diodes, I have never seen that low."


Whoa Hoss! I don't know how I implied that but I have never seen a silicon diode with less than say .58 vf. !!!

But the greater the peak inverse voltage (PIV) rating, generally the greater the vf. I have seen some 2K PIV diodes with a 1.1 volt vf but usually these are 1 amp or less and they shiver my timbers with the price tag.

Again I apologize if I erroneously led that silicon diodes can have a super low vf. That is never the case.

But Schottky rectifiers with very low PIV suffer greatly in an automotive environment. That's why I upgraded Jim in Denver's Megawatt to 150 PIV Schottky rectifiers from 100 PIV. Both rectifiers have the same vf. But the original is a 30 amp, the new ones are 80 ampere.

I used to purchase one mil boxes of 50 PIV 3-amp axial diodes and bench test them to 1.5 Kv and not get one single microamp everse leakage.

Zener diodes usually have impressive (high) vf, but high ampere, higher voltage zeners carry a stiff price tag.

[Huntindog]

DiskDoctr wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
So I decided to install voltage regulators on the circuits that I wanted LEDS on. 3 circuits needed the mod. I got the regulators on ebay dirt cheap... Less than 5.00 apiece. They work great. They do have a fairly low amp rating of 3-5 amps, so all lights on the circuit need to be LEDS in order to stay under that spec.
As a side note: I only installed LEDS on high use lights. Bedrooms and bathrooms don't see much use from us, so I didn't bother with them.

I later switched my outside lights over to LEDs. I did not bother installing a regulator on that circuit... So far, so good.

I thought about that. I use them in Arduino projects, but the campers circuits are 15 amp and not separated from fans and such :E

They are all 15 amp- if I could find some reasonable 15 amp regulators, I'd install a couple of them.

...or, if I could find a decent (under $50?) regulator, I'd just install it on the convertor output to the distribution panel.

My unit is 55amp DC output, which includes charging. Surely wouldn't need more than that 😉

I had a range vent fan on one circuit I wanted LEDs on. I measured the amp draw of the fan. I forget the figure, but it was not as high as I thiught it would be. I do know that I have two 3 amp regulators on LED circuits, and One 5 amp for the range fan and LEDs.. BTW, I reduced the fuse sizes to match what the regulators were rated for.
It probably can be done on yours as well.
So I would not give up yet.

[Gdetrailer]

NinerBikes wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

DiskDoctr wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
I would suspect the resistance needed if any would be very small but if you like, instead of a resistor you can simply add a regular silicon power diode in series. A regular silicon diode will drop about .6V-.7V which would get you back to say 14.2-14.1V respectively.

I am planning to add a diode anyways to split the lights with a On-Off-On position switch.

Connect bulb Side A and Side B with a diode so that Side B is blocked from getting power from Side A, but flows freely from Side B to Side A (normal diode operation, but spelling it out here)

Position 1: Run 12v to switch, Power to Side 'A' lights only Side A, blocked by diode from running to Side B

Position 2: Run 12 to switch, Power to Side B lights BOTH sides, as power also flows through diode to Side A.

Have a wild guess as to a part number?

(probably wouldn't do any good in this position anyways 😞 )

Sorry, I'm not very sharp on electronics stuff this am

Pretty much ANY General purpose diode with a working voltage and amperage above what you expect to ever see.

A 50V 1A GP diode should be plenty acceptable if you are placing it in series with one of those modules.. You can find that as a 1N4001 which can be bought HERE, for 3 cents a piece (min order of 100 diodes at $3).

If you are planning to switch multiple lights then a higher current diodes would be suggested.. HERE is a 100V 6A diode at $.35 each..

Since the switching idea you are thinking of may possibly involve a fused circuit of 7A or more you may wish to consider using diodes with a minimum capacity of the fuse size so the fuse will blow instead of the diodes if any short would happen..

Higher voltage and current is OK but those do get physically bigger so there may be a point where too high of current or voltage diode may get difficult to fit in a small space.

Although, personally I would simplify things by using three and four way switching like you would find at a sticks and bricks..

Three way you need two single pole double throw (SPDT) switches, you would then need to run three wires between switches. One wire acts as a traveler and the other two alternate between on/off..

Found a good website with picture diagrams of three way wiring, just substitute 12V and 12V lights..

THREE WAY SWITCH DIAGRAMS

What is the voltage drop per rectifier with those models? 0.6 to 0.7V?

"Mex" sort of beat me to it a bit.

Silicon semiconductor "junctions" typically have pretty much similar forward voltage drop but not all will be identical even from the same "batch".

Pretty much accepted is a range from .6V-.7V depending on the current, this goes for silicon transistors and diode junctions..

While Mex quotes considerably lower forward voltage drop of .4-.5V for non Schottky diodes, I have never seen that low.. Typically .6V will be the lowest but that will be at the lower end of the current rating..

That 1A 50V PIV GP diode I linked has a .6V at min current to .8V at max current and the "typical" forward voltage drop per spec sheets is claimed as 1V.

For my own purposes I typically stick with .7V when using a diode as a means to quickly and predictably drop .7V per diode in series..

You can add additional diodes in series to drop more if needed.

As a side note, this is no different to what is done with White LEDs but instead of .7V per diode, White LEDs need about 3V average forward voltage.. Hence the reason for 12V you will typically find 3 white LEDs (approx 9V forward voltage drop) in series and a resistor or regulator..

For really cheap White LEDs modules they cheat further by using FOUR white LEDs in series and NO resistor or regulator for 12V!! While this is possible to do, it is not a recommended way if you want the LEDS to last..

[MEXICOWANDERER]

RE: Voltage Regulator Quirk

Any DC regulator has a critical specification that must not be overlooked.

The spec is referred to as "Dropout Voltage"

It is the voltage "differential" between incoming and outgoing voltage. Referred to as "Delta T"

Many cheap regulators have a 2.0 volt Delta T which is unsuitable. Think about it.

High end voltage regulators, first boost voltage, then buck it with a 2nd section. Then Delta T becomes irrelevant. But energy loss, component size and initial cost enter the picture.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Static test versus full load can have any silicon rectifier range .4 - .5 volts. I strongly recommend a custom load calibration test before a final decision on rectifiers for vf function.

To wit: My 500 ampere Schottky rectifiers exhibit .19 volt static test vf and .48 vf under a 50 ampere load. A 2-ampere load results in a .22 vf.

Testing at max expected chip temperature is crucial. Once a chip begins thermal runaway - the game is over within seconds.

Curiously I have noted SMDs driven near max ma degrade in lumen output over a period of time. One chip device after another (chain effect) fails.

Ballasting diodes can be coupled in series.

[NinerBikes]

Gdetrailer wrote:

DiskDoctr wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
I would suspect the resistance needed if any would be very small but if you like, instead of a resistor you can simply add a regular silicon power diode in series. A regular silicon diode will drop about .6V-.7V which would get you back to say 14.2-14.1V respectively.

I am planning to add a diode anyways to split the lights with a On-Off-On position switch.

Connect bulb Side A and Side B with a diode so that Side B is blocked from getting power from Side A, but flows freely from Side B to Side A (normal diode operation, but spelling it out here)

Position 1: Run 12v to switch, Power to Side 'A' lights only Side A, blocked by diode from running to Side B

Position 2: Run 12 to switch, Power to Side B lights BOTH sides, as power also flows through diode to Side A.

Have a wild guess as to a part number?

(probably wouldn't do any good in this position anyways 😞 )

Sorry, I'm not very sharp on electronics stuff this am

Pretty much ANY General purpose diode with a working voltage and amperage above what you expect to ever see.

A 50V 1A GP diode should be plenty acceptable if you are placing it in series with one of those modules.. You can find that as a 1N4001 which can be bought HERE, for 3 cents a piece (min order of 100 diodes at $3).

If you are planning to switch multiple lights then a higher current diodes would be suggested.. HERE is a 100V 6A diode at $.35 each..

Since the switching idea you are thinking of may possibly involve a fused circuit of 7A or more you may wish to consider using diodes with a minimum capacity of the fuse size so the fuse will blow instead of the diodes if any short would happen..

Higher voltage and current is OK but those do get physically bigger so there may be a point where too high of current or voltage diode may get difficult to fit in a small space.

Although, personally I would simplify things by using three and four way switching like you would find at a sticks and bricks..

Three way you need two single pole double throw (SPDT) switches, you would then need to run three wires between switches. One wire acts as a traveler and the other two alternate between on/off..

Found a good website with picture diagrams of three way wiring, just substitute 12V and 12V lights..

THREE WAY SWITCH DIAGRAMS

What is the voltage drop per rectifier with those models? 0.6 to 0.7V?

[DiskDoctr]

Huntindog wrote:
So I decided to install voltage regulators on the circuits that I wanted LEDS on. 3 circuits needed the mod. I got the regulators on ebay dirt cheap... Less than 5.00 apiece. They work great. They do have a fairly low amp rating of 3-5 amps, so all lights on the circuit need to be LEDS in order to stay under that spec.
As a side note: I only installed LEDS on high use lights. Bedrooms and bathrooms don't see much use from us, so I didn't bother with them.

I later switched my outside lights over to LEDs. I did not bother installing a regulator on that circuit... So far, so good.

I thought about that. I use them in Arduino projects, but the campers circuits are 15 amp and not separated from fans and such :E

They are all 15 amp- if I could find some reasonable 15 amp regulators, I'd install a couple of them.

...or, if I could find a decent (under $50?) regulator, I'd just install it on the convertor output to the distribution panel.

My unit is 55amp DC output, which includes charging. Surely wouldn't need more than that 😉

[ktmrfs]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Schpeaking of RF generation...

I'm going to attempt to build a Pi filter that will be inserted at the power entry point of an LED fixture. "Hopefully" it will null back fed frequencies from using the entire 12 volt switched circuit as a transmitter. "By prayer and crossed fingers" it will reduce radiation generated by LED regulators. Wonder how an LED reg is going to like its own faraday cage?

lots of the better regulated LED lights are very good for having very low RFI. trouble is you can't tell by looking at the spec's. or the vendor. In my case I got all mine of different bases, etc. from one supplier. however, one specific base style put put lots of RFI, luckily only used in one fixture. all the rest were very good. but the bad ones can be pretty bad.

[Huntindog]

DiskDoctr wrote:

BFL13 wrote:
What is the scenario for having the LEDs on when your 12v system is at 14.8 ?????

You're right about *most* of the time, using the genny during the day.

But...I don't want to have a "cannot use lights while the generator is running...or while the camper is plugged in limitation.

If the higher voltage shortens the LED life by half, getting 5yrs vs 10 years is no big deal.

But if it *can* be done to keep the voltage in line, and is reasonable price, I'd like to look at that option.

I had the same concern as you when I went to LEDs a few years ago.

One person here had done some testing at higher voltages, and noted that they got hot, and surmised that they would fail sooner.

So I decided to install voltage regulators on the circuits that I wanted LEDS on. 3 circuits needed the mod. I got the regulators on ebay dirt cheap... Less than 5.00 apiece. They work great. They do have a fairly low amp rating of 3-5 amps, so all lights on the circuit need to be LEDS in order to stay under that spec.
As a side note: I only installed LEDS on high use lights. Bedrooms and bathrooms don't see much use from us, so I didn't bother with them.

I later switched my outside lights over to LEDs. I did not bother installing a regulator on that circuit... So far, so good.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Schpeaking of RF generation...

I'm going to attempt to build a Pi filter that will be inserted at the power entry point of an LED fixture. "Hopefully" it will null back fed frequencies from using the entire 12 volt switched circuit as a transmitter. "By prayer and crossed fingers" it will reduce radiation generated by LED regulators. Wonder how an LED reg is going to like its own faraday cage?

[ktmrfs]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

time2roll wrote:
It is voltage not amps that will affect LED lamps.
You really need to check the LED specifications.
Quality LEDs are good from about 9 to 30 volts.

REGULATED LEDs will typically have 9 to 30V range..

UNREGULATED (AND HENCE THE ONES THE OP IS DISCUSSING) DO NOT HAVE 9-30 volt range..

Regulated LEDs use a constant current switching regulator power supply..

UNREGULATED LEDS either use a RESISTOR to "regulate" the current draw OR NO RESISTOR AT ALL (IE LEDS IN SERIES WITHOUT A RESISTOR)..


The unregulated LED modules tend to have a VERY NARROW OPERATING VOLTAGE and may or may not be happy at any voltages above 13.8-14.2V (typical auto CHARGING voltages when engine is running).

There is no way that anyone here on this forum will be able to tell the OP if his selection will be fine or not at 14.4V or higher..

OP will simply have to try them and see for themselves..

As a side note, VOLTAGE DOES AFFECT THE AMOUNT OF CURRENT LEDS DRAW..

Unregulated LEDs are especially vulnerable since they will sharply draw MORE current any time they have MORE VOLTAGE applied than what they were designed to typically operate at.

Regulated LEDs due to the switching regulator are kept at a constant current although the INPUT current can change up or down with the voltage changes.. Feed a regulated LED 9V and it will draw more current at the input than say 15V would..

:B

IMHO

Right
On
The
Money
Answer

GDEtrailer.

I spend hours each day playing with LEDs from 20 milliamp to 500 watt ratings. Trying to outguess and predict P/N junction temperatures (effective heat sinking) versus an absurdly sensitive milliamps tolerance is ummmm... unwise. Volts (in tenths) per degrees reaches a "certain" value, then above that the heating goes nuts. BOINK! Failed LED. I try to maintain a 122F (40c) chip lens temp max limit. For me, this temperature causes me to withdraw my finger rapidly and say HOT!

As I increase volts from say 12.2 to 13.0 I would have to guess many unregulated LED SMDs gain 50% in brilliance. Lumens, brightness, whatever.

yup, you want to drive LED's with a constant current. trying to do that with a voltage source is fraught with problems even if the voltage source is highly regulated, which a RV voltage source is NOT. junction voltage has a negative temp coefficient, often resulting in thermal run away. and as mex observed, brightness is a highly nonlinear function of applied current. Ideally for max brightness you drive it with a duty cycle pulsed current since brightness is not a linear function of applied current. so you pulse the current at something above 60hz but keep the rms value below the max. and the current drive should have some element of temp compensation as well to reduce current with increasing device temperature to avoid thermal runaway.

today many LED's have the regulation circuitry built into the die and don't require much additional circuitry. But beware of possible high RF generation from some devices. It can vary from almost none, to making watching tv or listening to the radio or stereo almost unbearable.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Gdetrailer wrote:

time2roll wrote:
It is voltage not amps that will affect LED lamps.
You really need to check the LED specifications.
Quality LEDs are good from about 9 to 30 volts.

REGULATED LEDs will typically have 9 to 30V range..

UNREGULATED (AND HENCE THE ONES THE OP IS DISCUSSING) DO NOT HAVE 9-30 volt range..

Regulated LEDs use a constant current switching regulator power supply..

UNREGULATED LEDS either use a RESISTOR to "regulate" the current draw OR NO RESISTOR AT ALL (IE LEDS IN SERIES WITHOUT A RESISTOR)..


The unregulated LED modules tend to have a VERY NARROW OPERATING VOLTAGE and may or may not be happy at any voltages above 13.8-14.2V (typical auto CHARGING voltages when engine is running).

There is no way that anyone here on this forum will be able to tell the OP if his selection will be fine or not at 14.4V or higher..

OP will simply have to try them and see for themselves..

As a side note, VOLTAGE DOES AFFECT THE AMOUNT OF CURRENT LEDS DRAW..

Unregulated LEDs are especially vulnerable since they will sharply draw MORE current any time they have MORE VOLTAGE applied than what they were designed to typically operate at.

Regulated LEDs due to the switching regulator are kept at a constant current although the INPUT current can change up or down with the voltage changes.. Feed a regulated LED 9V and it will draw more current at the input than say 15V would..

:B

IMHO

Right
On
The
Money
Answer

GDEtrailer.

I spend hours each day playing with LEDs from 20 milliamp to 500 watt ratings. Trying to outguess and predict P/N junction temperatures (effective heat sinking) versus an absurdly sensitive milliamps tolerance is ummmm... unwise. Volts (in tenths) per degrees reaches a "certain" value, then above that the heating goes nuts. BOINK! Failed LED. I try to maintain a 122F (40c) chip lens temp max limit. For me, this temperature causes me to withdraw my finger rapidly and say HOT!

As I increase volts from say 12.2 to 13.0 I would have to guess many unregulated LED SMDs gain 50% in brilliance. Lumens, brightness, whatever.