Bad receptacle installation by factory - potentially unsafe

[myredracer]

I removed a receptacle in our KZ Spree TT on the weekend to replace it with a black one and what I found was disturbing as can be seen in the first photo. Let this serve as a warning to RV owners out there.

The hot and neutral wires were only pushed onto one of the two terminals instead of two as specified by the manufacturer and as required by the UL/CSA certification. This means that the receptacle is only capable of carrying 1/2 it's current rating - 7 1/2 amps. Where higher rated appliances are used like say in a kitchen, this could lead to overheating. Worse, if someone has a heater plugged in and it runs non-stop for long periods of time, that would create an even higher risk of overheating. Note also that the romex/loomex cable sheath does not extend inside the receptacle housing as it is required to.

I've also found two receptacles with reverse polarity and a wire at a breaker in the converter/panel that was completely loose. KZ needs to look at their electrical practices and code compliance. I've also found numerous issues with the 12 volt wiring too. I am NOT impressed. :M

KZ is not alone though. The second photo is from a previous Coachmen Catalina TT that we used to own and you can see the hot wire connected to one terminal only there too. You can also see how the terminal was damaged and it appears that they did not use the correct tool. In two out of two TTs that I've pulled receptacles out of the wall, they've both had the same problem. Not good odds.

Receptacles in RVs are designated "SCD" for self-contained device and do not require an outlet box. These are also use in mobile homes. They are CSA or UL tested and are completely safe to use and do not ever need to be removed and replaced with a residential type (and outlet box) with screw terminals. The MUST be properly installed though and that is where RV factories are at fault. There is a special tool to "punch down" the wires onto the terminals and there is no excuse for not doing it correctly. This catalogue from Hubbell has detailed info. on their Wirecon SCD and explains how they are to be installed.

RVs are required to be wired according to the NEC, which is very detailed on what is required. Plus electrical appliances, wiring devices (recepts. & switches), wire, etc. are required to be UL or CSA certified. The problem is - there is no authority having jurisdiction or electrical engineer that is required to inspect the work for code compliance. To make it even harder, RVs are built in one state and shipped all over the US and to Canada so what AHJ would be responsible? I might consider notifying the electrical safety authority but would it be a state official or would it go to a federal authority?

[dougrainer]

myredracer wrote:

dougrainer wrote:
I would say your problem is simple. CSA wiring code requires LARGER 120 romex than USA built units. That means they were attempting to crimp 12 gauge instead of 14 gauge wires to the teeth of the outlets. Since I only work on tens of thousands of USA built units, I rarely ever find what you have found. Yes, I have found inadequate crimped 120 outlets, but it is rare. When you attempt to crimp 12 gauge they MUST use a little more diligence in doing the work. Now for the Simpletons that state "they do not have electricity in their homes", What BS. Amish(Mennonites) are NOT close to the majority in the Assbly plants. I WORKED with them 40 years ago in Middlebury, and I can guarantee they know how to assemble correctly, RV units no matter what part of the production line they are on. These receptacles have been in use since at least 1975 in the RV industry. Doug

SCDs are CSA approved for #12 or #14 and the slightly thicker jacket on the Canadian wire we have is also approved for use with them and neither should be an issue. You cannot use 2 different gauges in the same device for obvious reasons. In one of the photos, the wire is too short to reach the 2nd terminal. The one wire that is inserted went in fine and has no damaged insulation. In the 2nd photo, you can see that the insulation was damaged due to not using the correct "punch-down" tool which could have been why one terminal is bent like it is. Both bad workmanship and no excuse IMO.

I've worked with a lot of electricians over the years in building construction and there is zero tolerance for this sort of bad workmanship because of fire and shock risks. It's great to have the NEC covering RVs, but if the manufacturers don't have licensed electricians on staff and an inspection process in place, there's no incentive to prevent errors from happening.

Licensed Electricians on staff? HOW many residential/commercial electrical work is actually looked at by the Licensed Electrician? I doubt the Licensed Electrician will go behind EVERY receptacle that is installed by his crew and verifies that it is done correctly. Now, I find your claim suspect. Why? because how many people take pics of outlets and just happen to state that I had a previous other brand with the same problem? I took pics? Now, to claim that because you have seen a few, the ENTIRE industry is suspect????????? Sorry, you are just bring up a non issue. Doug

[DrewE]

If you replace the sockets with screw terminal ones, make sure to check from time to time that the screws are staying tight. Vibration in an RV can tend to loosen screws. For much the same reason, it's not a bad idea at all to tape wire nuts in RVs even though it's not generally necessary in fixed houses.

I think the type of connections that get back wired and then clamped with the screw and a plate (not the spring clip back stab outlets that hardly stay tight in ordinary houses) would be preferable to the screw terminals you wrap the wire around for RV usage.

[Lynnmor]

I replaced the cheap junk self contained outlets with real residential outlets in a box. The idea that electricians and inspectors are part of the process is not the reality in the RV business.

[drsteve]

.

[pianotuna]

I replaced all the stab connector outlets with good quality screw terminal units with boxes.

[myredracer]

dougrainer wrote:
I would say your problem is simple. CSA wiring code requires LARGER 120 romex than USA built units. That means they were attempting to crimp 12 gauge instead of 14 gauge wires to the teeth of the outlets. Since I only work on tens of thousands of USA built units, I rarely ever find what you have found. Yes, I have found inadequate crimped 120 outlets, but it is rare. When you attempt to crimp 12 gauge they MUST use a little more diligence in doing the work. Now for the Simpletons that state "they do not have electricity in their homes", What BS. Amish(Mennonites) are NOT close to the majority in the Assbly plants. I WORKED with them 40 years ago in Middlebury, and I can guarantee they know how to assemble correctly, RV units no matter what part of the production line they are on. These receptacles have been in use since at least 1975 in the RV industry. Doug

SCDs are CSA approved for #12 or #14 and the slightly thicker jacket on the Canadian wire we have is also approved for use with them and neither should be an issue. You cannot use 2 different gauges in the same device for obvious reasons. In one of the photos, the wire is too short to reach the 2nd terminal. The one wire that is inserted went in fine and has no damaged insulation. In the 2nd photo, you can see that the insulation was damaged due to not using the correct "punch-down" tool which could have been why one terminal is bent like it is. Both bad workmanship and no excuse IMO.

I've worked with a lot of electricians over the years in building construction and there is zero tolerance for this sort of bad workmanship because of fire and shock risks. It's great to have the NEC covering RVs, but if the manufacturers don't have licensed electricians on staff and an inspection process in place, there's no incentive to prevent errors from happening.

[dougrainer]

I would say your problem is simple. CSA wiring code requires LARGER 120 romex than USA built units. That means they were attempting to crimp 12 gauge instead of 14 gauge wires to the teeth of the outlets. Since I only work on tens of thousands of USA built units, I rarely ever find what you have found. Yes, I have found inadequate crimped 120 outlets, but it is rare. When you attempt to crimp 12 gauge they MUST use a little more diligence in doing the work. Now for the Simpletons that state "they do not have electricity in their homes", What BS. Amish(Mennonites) are NOT close to the majority in the Assbly plants. I WORKED with them 40 years ago in Middlebury, and I can guarantee they know how to assemble correctly, RV units no matter what part of the production line they are on. These receptacles have been in use since at least 1975 in the RV industry. Doug

[myredracer]

RoyB wrote:
Assuming you purchased your 2016 model new and no previous owner has done any electrical changes to it...Roy Ken

Both of our TTs have been new and untouched by anyone else except for the Amish craftsmen in Indiana (the ones without electricity I guess too).

There must be zillions of the SCD devices in mobiles homes and you don't hear about them burning down from incorrect installation. I have no idea if they undergo a different inspection and compliance process?

I'm not so sure the RVIA would do much if anything? They seem to be more of a self-serving industry organization, but I could be wrong.

[j-d]

From another thread on similar stuff:

"The crew who wired your coach probably don't have electricity in their homes."

[road-runner]

Pretty typical for RV wiring, unfortunately. I had a number of wiring mistakes in mine, in both the 120 and 12 volt systems. One example is that there were hot 12 volt wires, just cut off and flopping around in a hidden spot, waiting to spark against a metal portion of the motorhome floor.

[Old-Biscuit]

Does any one actually think 'certified electricians' are doing the installs :S


Piece work.....

"Ok gang we have 12 rigs slated for today....get them done by 12 and we all go home. Done by 5 still the same. Ready? GO!"

[azrving]

Whoever did it must be the same guy who installed the plugs in my sons 2003 Dutchmen. His had a loose wire in the gfi and one like that not pushed in all the way. I thought about looking at every plug but have a ton of other stuff to do. I'm hauling the FW down to him but when I get there I'm pulling every plug to check it. Thanks for reminding me.

[j-d]

I'm not the first on RV.net to have the water heater go out because of one of those devices. Mine was the junction box type, not an outlet type, but they work the same way when it comes to punching the connections down. Mine was too burned to really be able to "autopsy" but it makes sense that only one tang well punched would let the installation pass an operational test. It just wouldn't last.

[RoyB]

I have replaced a bunch of these thin line receptacles in my wiring mods... Never really found one mis-wired per say but there sure isn't much room to move one or tie another receptacle in line with one... There is also hardly any slack with the ROMEX cables going from receptacle to receptacle as well...

Also when removing one since these are the pinch wire types as soon as you touch the solid wire that has been marked by the pinch wire it breaks into...

I just pull them out and replace with the standard house type 120VAC receptacle that uses the wiring screws for connections which are not slimline type receptacles...

Google image

This makes you have to install them in a standard PVC Electrical box to meet code...

If I had the wall space available I would remove and replace everyone of them...

Assuming you purchased your 2016 model new and no previous owner has done any electrical changes to it...

Roy Ken

[mike-s]

You might try writing the RVIA. They claim "RVIA maintains an inspection program to monitor compliance of the plumbing, heating, fire and life safety, and the electrical systems of the RVs manufactured by its members in conformance to the ANSI/NFPA 1192 standard for RVs." They say that KZ is a member.