Cell Phone Signal Booster

[cruz-in]

Hi Team,

Considering adding a Cell phone signal booster to our rv. Something like this one:

Wilson Signal Booster - Small Area...

Anyone have and opinions/experience with them?

Thanks
Dan

[cruz-in]

Docj, agree all makes sense.

I would put forth that a a situation you observed makes a strong case for a properly placed antenna and 4G amplifier/repeater.

" At the rural location where we have been for the past couple of months, unamplified phones can manage to connect using 4G if they are outside but inside a building the reduced signal strength results in them running on 3G or even 1XrTT"

Strong rationale for a properly placed antenna and 4G amplifier/repeater to give them a shot at 4G inside and the increased data rate inside the building/camper.......

[docj]

cruz-in wrote:
On Friday, i saw a perfect example of "more bars meaning more throughput". I was at the University of Maryland and a professor wanted to show me a video of an experiment on a magnetorestrictive sensor. Her phone was downloading the video very slowly (saying we had 10 minutes to complete the download). Well after a few minutes (and only 25% of the download completed), we got impatient. We walked over by the window and the data rate jumped dramatically. In less than a minute the last 3/4 of the video downloaded.

But you do know there are other perfectly possible explanations for this that don't involve signal strength.

As full-time RVers dependent on a cellular signal who like to stream video, I can attest to the fact that the Verizon cellular network on any given tower can exhibit significant changes in throughput from minute to minute. Even with a cellular amplifier there are periodic episodes ranging from ~10-100 seconds during which the cellular throughput speed can drop to zero despite the fact that the phone will insist it is connected to the network. So it's always possible that this was the cause of the professor's problem.

Even more likely, the stronger signal near the window enabled the phone to switch to the 4G/LTE network because the signal strength for it got above the phone's threshold requirement. At the rural location where we have been for the past couple of months, unamplified phones can manage to connect using 4G if they are outside but inside a building the reduced signal strength results in them running on 3G or even 1XrTT. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the professor's phone simply switched networks when she brought it near the window; it happens all the time for us.

The bottom line is that good antennas help, amplifiers help, and antenna placement is extremely important. But all of that notwithstanding, if you don't have a fairly decent signal to start with, nothing can help you. Our last S&B was located on a mountain without a line of sight to a cellular tower from any network. Cellular signals at the -110dB level could be detected but they were "bounce" signals (non-line-of-sight). Calls could be made and received "once in a while" and no amount of amplification would improve the situation (short of erecting a several hundred foot mast). So don't expect any amplifier to work miracles.

[brulaz]

We have the Wilson Mobile 3G and it has worked very well for us over the last several years. We use it primarily to access the internet via our tablet (which gives us local wifi for our computers). But it has occasionally been useful with the cellphone as well, but cumbersome.

As already pointed out, one big advantage is being able to place the antenna higher and use a directional antenna if you want. Up north I have a separate antenna high on the roof of the two storey cottage, no directional antenna is needed.

With our trailer I use the same amplifier but have two additional antennas one directional and one non-directional antenna that is often good enough. I mount the directional antenna to long Al tubing (those who have used snow roof rakes will know where that came from) and strap it to the trailer's ladder.

[cruz-in]

On Friday, i saw a perfect example of "more bars meaning more throughput". I was at the University of Maryland and a professor wanted to show me a video of an experiment on a magnetorestrictive sensor. Her phone was downloading the video very slowly (saying we had 10 minutes to complete the download). Well after a few minutes (and only 25% of the download completed), we got impatient. We walked over by the window and the data rate jumped dramatically. In less than a minute the last 3/4 of the video downloaded.

[cruz-in]

I always worry that passing on a different opinion can be see as disrespectful to the one being disagreed with. I am not trying to do that at all. Just passing on a different opinion for consideration of those considering a cellular signal booster.

Until my recent change of jobs, I was a network architect for a wireless/cellular network. I often see where a designer has generalized wifi network concepts to cellular networks. The result is usually less than adequate performance. Cellular and WiFi networks are not the same, they have very different geometries, channel characteristics, modulation schemes, distances typically involved,etc. Hence they behave very differently.

Here is my opinion. Again I am speaking of cellular signals (not wifi as they behave differently and deserve another thread to themselves) here are my inputs:

1) Antenna placement. With a signal repeater the antenna is typically placed in a much better area for signal reception(on roof of rv). Allowing for much better reception and (typically) less blockages. This alone is significant. Think of having you TV antenna inside vice on the roof.

2) Type of antenna. One can use a higher gain or directional antenna with a repeater/booster. Again a significant contributor to signal strength and signal to noise. Think of "rabbit ears" vice a quality directional TV antenna.

3) The amplifier. With a quality $500 cell phone repeater you are getting a FAR better amplified/transceiver than is in you cellphone. This improved amplifier (with much lower signal to noise) goes a long way to reduce lost/corrupted packets. Especially in fringe areas we camp.

4) The return path. For voice calls this is critical. A cellular link is a very asymmetric link. The tower to cellphone has very different characteristics than the cell phone to tower. Think of the tower; big antennas, high quality and powerful transceivers. Then tink of you hand held device, avery small antenna and a amplifier/transceiver operating at a few tenths of a watt. For the channel from you handset to the tower, a signal booster/repeater takes this relatively weak signal, amplifies it, and send it over a better placed and better quality antenna.

I routinely see where better antenna placement, better antennas, and better/more powerful transceivers result is a very noticeable improvements in data throughput.

Don't take the differing opinions of two well meaning dudes on the internet (myself and Docj), try this for yourself. Next time you have a weak signal in your RV (and trouble connecting or low data rates), just go outside and climb up on the roof...signal and effective data throughput will, in all likelyhood, significantly improve. Now considering placing a better antenna and better amplifier up there and you can visualize the improvement you would get (in that situation) from a quality signal booster.

As many of us camp in remote areas, IMHO a properly installed and configured antenna and amplifier can result in improved data through put over a cellular network.

[hypoxia]

I've been using the Wilson 801201 for a few years. I like the ability to stack a bunch of phones & devices on & around the indoor antenna. Everyone in the vehicle/camper benefits. I just ordered the Wilson Mobile 4G which offers the same benefit. The Sleek is a good product but does not offer that.

Cruz-in & docj, you aren't giving us enough credit. We know that the tighter you pull the string the stronger the signal is between the cans.

[RoyB]

I use the WILSON SLEEK as my so called docking station for my VERIZON MIFI WIFI HOT SPOT. This uses a PASSIVE antenna connection between the WILSON SLEEK provided external antenna and the back of the MIFI case. The WILSON SLEEK antenna is mounted outside my POPUP.

Most definitely helps my secure operation of the Verizon MIFI unit. Also extends the coverage range of the MIFI WIFI HOT SPOT area as well.


Have had my WILSON SLEEK in use from 2009 I think it was and is mounted near the ceiling of my OFF-ROAD POPUP behind the valance curtains...

Works great for us being used in VA East to the Ocean states and south to the gulf coast states as well as Texas and OKLA. I am using the Verizon secured grandfathered 3GB Dataplan allowing us to use five WIFI device connections for checking emails, on-line banking, chatting with family and some surfing of the internet. This is not enough data to do any downstreaming of TV SHOWs however.

Roy Ken

[docj]

cruz-in wrote:

docj wrote:

sdianel wrote:
I use the Wilson Sleek and got the window mount suction cup mount and a taller antenna. I put the antenna on the inside of the window. Place the phone or wi-fi hotspot on the Wilson Sleek. Worked for me all over the US. If I get a weak signal I can boost it enough to make calls and get online. Is it real fast? No. But works for me and price is reasonable. I ordered mine from Walmart.com

In most situations there is absolutely no relationship between the speed of your connection and the strength of the signal. Amplifying a signal doesn't "make it faster". The only way a cellular booster can provide additional speed is in those situations in which a 4G signal might be too weak to reliably connect to so the phone would go to 3G without an amplifier. But in normal use, the amplifier simply provides a stronger more stable signal. So if your Wilson Sleek works for you, the chances are that a more expensive amplifier would not produce any better result.

From the user standpoint, this is not the case.

I will concede that strictly speaking (at the physical and data link layers) this is true. The data rate at the Physical and data link layers does not change. However at the upper layers of the stack (like the network and application), the "effective" data rate can, and usually does, drop off at at lower signal strengths. At lower signal levels you get more dropped/corrupted packets. The upper upper layers of the stack (like network and application) must request re-transmission of these packets. Thus effectively (and at times significantly) reducing the effective (which is all the user cares about) "speed" of the connection.

It is true that amplifying a bad signal just gives you an amplified bad signal and will result in no increase in effective speed.

Additionally, this statement (no speed increase) does not consider one of the key factors of a good signal booster:

1) The antenna for the signal booster is usually placed in a position that it is getting a much better signal (like on the roof), than would be present at the antenna of your cell phone (in your car or RV). Hence it is receiving a much better signal to start with.

2) The antenna on a good cell booster is much more sensitive that the one on your cell phone. hence it received weaker signals and eliminates many of the errors/corrupted packets due to low signal.

Sorry if I jumped into lecture mode, I have a Master of Science of Electrical Engineering, specializing in communications...this is what I do for a living....this is probably way more info that was needed...

Thank you for your lecture notes.

The answer I wrote was directed at the average reader of this forum who does not have a degree in Electrical Engineering (or in physics, which is what mine is in).

Your explanation is excellent; at the margin of very weak signals and dropped/corrupted packets an amplifier can improve perceived (effective) speed, but only to the extent of reducing the packet re-transmission issue and getting the signal to an adequate level. I alluded to that when I mentioned that an amplifier might, for example, make it possible to connect using 4G/LTE rather than 3G or 1XrTT.

However, from my experience the user will far more commonly find himself in a situation in which his amplifier provides him no speed improvement and this puzzles many people. Believe me, I know, because I go through this discussion relative to WiFi on an almost daily basis regarding the products sold by WiFiRanger.

The average, non-technical reader does not understand that once an adequate signal is available further improvement will not increase the speed or stability of his connection. Nor does the average user realize that the "bars" displayed on his phone are nothing more than a coarse, qualitative measure of the received signal and that a real measurement can't be made from observing those.

For the sake of those who have long ago stopped reading this thread, let's agree that an amplifier/booster can, in cases of very weak signal, provide a speed improvement, but in a far larger percentage of cases it will improve the stability of a cellular connection without noticeable improvement in throughput speed. That way, those who are thinking of buying one of these devices will not have their expectations raised to an unattainable level.

[cruz-in]

docj wrote:

sdianel wrote:
I use the Wilson Sleek and got the window mount suction cup mount and a taller antenna. I put the antenna on the inside of the window. Place the phone or wi-fi hotspot on the Wilson Sleek. Worked for me all over the US. If I get a weak signal I can boost it enough to make calls and get online. Is it real fast? No. But works for me and price is reasonable. I ordered mine from Walmart.com

In most situations there is absolutely no relationship between the speed of your connection and the strength of the signal. Amplifying a signal doesn't "make it faster". The only way a cellular booster can provide additional speed is in those situations in which a 4G signal might be too weak to reliably connect to so the phone would go to 3G without an amplifier. But in normal use, the amplifier simply provides a stronger more stable signal. So if your Wilson Sleek works for you, the chances are that a more expensive amplifier would not produce any better result.

From the user standpoint, this is not the case.

I will concede that strictly speaking (at the physical and data link layers) this is true. The data rate at the Physical and data link layers does not change. However at the upper layers of the stack (like the network and application), the "effective" data rate can, and usually does, drop off at at lower signal strengths. At lower signal levels you get more dropped/corrupted packets. The upper upper layers of the stack (like network and application) must request re-transmission of these packets. Thus effectively (and at times significantly) reducing the effective (which is all the user cares about) "speed" of the connection.

It is true that amplifying a bad signal just gives you an amplified bad signal and will result in no increase in effective speed.

Additionally, this statement (no speed increase) does not consider one of the key factors of a good signal booster:

1) The antenna for the signal booster is usually placed in a position that it is getting a much better signal (like on the roof), than would be present at the antenna of your cell phone (in your car or RV). Hence it is receiving a much better signal to start with.

2) The antenna on a good cell booster is much more sensitive that the one on your cell phone. hence it received weaker signals and eliminates many of the errors/corrupted packets due to low signal.

Sorry if I jumped into lecture mode, I have a Master of Science of Electrical Engineering, specializing in communications...this is what I do for a living....this is probably way more info that was needed...

[cpaulsen]

Our Wilson Sleek has worked for is for almost a year anywhere we have gone. I have a 12 inch antenna mounted to my 5th wheel ladder.

[docj]

sdianel wrote:
I use the Wilson Sleek and got the window mount suction cup mount and a taller antenna. I put the antenna on the inside of the window. Place the phone or wi-fi hotspot on the Wilson Sleek. Worked for me all over the US. If I get a weak signal I can boost it enough to make calls and get online. Is it real fast? No. But works for me and price is reasonable. I ordered mine from Walmart.com

In most situations there is absolutely no relationship between the speed of your connection and the strength of the signal. Amplifying a signal doesn't "make it faster". The only way a cellular booster can provide additional speed is in those situations in which a 4G signal might be too weak to reliably connect to so the phone would go to 3G without an amplifier. But in normal use, the amplifier simply provides a stronger more stable signal. So if your Wilson Sleek works for you, the chances are that a more expensive amplifier would not produce any better result.

[sdianel_-acct_c]

I use the Wilson Sleek and got the window mount suction cup mount and a taller antenna. I put the antenna on the inside of the window. Place the phone or wi-fi hotspot on the Wilson Sleek. Worked for me all over the US. If I get a weak signal I can boost it enough to make calls and get online. Is it real fast? No. But works for me and price is reasonable. I ordered mine from Walmart.com

[Dutch_12078]

cruz-in wrote:
I was considering placing the outside antenna on the TV Antenna. This would let me raise/lower and point the antenna.

As far as a minimum of 20 feet.....I could maybe get 15....

A 15ft separation may cause oscillation issues. The installation manual specifies a 20ft minimum.

[hypoxia]

cruz-in wrote:
The mobile one is interesting as I could take it from Truck to 5th wheel. Having boost in Truck when traveling would be very useful....

That's what I did with my 3G amp. Now I'll prolly put the 3G in the truck & the 4G in the camper.