Charge wizard with Lithium upgrade to Converter charger?

[SFVdave]

I upgraded my PD4560 converter charger with the PD4560Licsv which is designed for Lithium battereis. I noticed that the charge wizard light still flashes and can be changed to the different modes. Is that purely visual and nothing is actually taking palce like voltage changes to storage, normal and boost?

[SFVdave]

I have shipped back the PD4560Licsv and am getting credited. I am using the original converter charger until PD comes out with a multi stage Li for unit. One nice thing about the original converter charger is at home, I can keep the shoreline plugged in and disconnect the house batteries from the converter and solar. This allows me to connect the engine battery back up to the system and keep it charged. Then the day before leaving for a trip I just isolate the engine battery again, reconnect the house batteries to the system to recharge and hit thge charge wizard. That will boost the converter charger to 14.4v for 4 hours allowing them to fully charge. Also, I switch the solar back on so the house batteries are continually charged while driving. All this switching is easily done by the Bussman resettable fuse switches.

[otrfun]

StirCrazy wrote:
I dont think I would have a issue using a BMS to control the upper limit if it only shut down the charging but I dont know for sure if thats how the bigger ones work . . .

Steve

Most aftermarket BMS's have two sets of mosfets. One for charge, one for discharge. Each one is programmable independently. I would imagine this would be true for most sealed/prepackaged LifePo4/BMS units, too (no programmability though).

[StirCrazy]

Itinerant1 wrote:
This has been covered already. BMS is there (or should be) as a last line of protection not the first.

"Float" if used in a daily cycling of the batteries won't hurt it but if your going to float them at storage for long periods of time then it could shorten the battery life.

I dont think I would have a issue using a BMS to control the upper limit if it only shut down the charging but I dont know for sure if thats how the bigger ones work. I would rather use somthing like a smart shunt and capacity counter to shut off the charger automaticly when the battery is full and reconect when power is available if capacity is less than say 80%.

hmmm... could be another project in the making...

Steve

[FWC]

Quite frankly I have very little confidence in either Renogy or PD. After the PD lithium converter debacle, I am not sure why anyone would trust them.

Victron is a far better option in this application as they don't presume to know how you want to charge your battery and allow you to adjust the charge parameters to your parameters.

[otrfun]

BFL13 wrote:

otrfun wrote:
Finally got around to looking at the lithium charge options on our Renogy 40a dc to dc charger we have mounted in our truck camper. Bad news, the lithium mode is single-stage just like the PD, no float. However, the good news, in lithium mode you have 7 voltages to select from: 12.6v, 12.8v, 13.0v, 14.0v, 14.2v, 14.4v, and 14.6v. In lead acid/AGM/GEL mode it becomes a 2-stage charger (absorption and float). 3 absorptions choices: 14.1v, 14.4v or 14.7v. 3 float choices: 13.2v, 13.5v, and 13.8v.

Interesting that both Renogy and Progressive Dynamic (and no-doubt others) use single-stage lithium chargers. Got to wonder whether these manufacturers saw no harm in floating a LifePo4 indefinitely at higher voltages (let the BMS do the dirty work??), or they just assumed the end-user would simply disconnect/turn-off the charger for long-term storage (based on LifePo4's very low parasitics).

BB says you can leave it at 14.x for a week or two. Your DC-DC shuts off when you shut off the ignition, so no need for a float option. A converter stays on for as long as you are plugged in.

DC-DC is buck/boost so maintains 14.x whether alternator regulation has it above or below the chosen 14.x.

Yes, in an *typical* alternator application I agree there's very little to worry about. However, that's making an assumption on how the dc to dc charger will be used. It may or may not be turned off after a period of time depending on application. Bottom line, Renogy or PD did not qualify or restrict the use of the lithium mode in their dc to dc charger or converter in their user's manual.

Renogy and PD offer 2-3 stage charging (with float) for lead acid/AGM/GEL. The question is *why* not a float for lithium? I honestly believe they left out this option on purpose, for what they felt was a good technical reason to do so. It wouldn't have cost them a penny more to have simply added a float for lithium if they felt the need existed. Definitely more to this story than they simply forgot. Curious minds want to know why--lol!

[BFL13]

otrfun wrote:
Finally got around to looking at the lithium charge options on our Renogy 40a dc to dc charger we have mounted in our truck camper. Bad news, the lithium mode is single-stage just like the PD, no float. However, the good news, in lithium mode you have 7 voltages to select from: 12.6v, 12.8v, 13.0v, 14.0v, 14.2v, 14.4v, and 14.6v. In lead acid/AGM/GEL mode it becomes a 2-stage charger (absorption and float). 3 absorptions choices: 14.1v, 14.4v or 14.7v. 3 float choices: 13.2v, 13.5v, and 13.8v.

Interesting that both Renogy and Progressive Dynamic (and no-doubt others) use single-stage lithium chargers. Got to wonder whether these manufacturers saw no harm in floating a LifePo4 indefinitely at higher voltages (let the BMS do the dirty work??), or they just assumed the end-user would simply disconnect/turn-off the charger for long-term storage (based on LifePo4's very low parasitics).

BB says you can leave it at 14.x for a week or two. Your DC-DC shuts off when you shut off the ignition, so no need for a float option. A converter stays on for as long as you are plugged in.

DC-DC is buck/boost so maintains 14.x whether alternator regulation has it above or below the chosen 14.x.

[Itinerant1]

This has been covered already. BMS is there (or should be) as a last line of protection not the first.

"Float" if used in a daily cycling of the batteries won't hurt it but if your going to float them at storage for long periods of time then it could shorten the battery life.

[noteven]

Why do litium batteries require a "float" mode?

Doesn't the BMS accept charge until full then shut off? Then turn on again when charge can be accepted?

Thanks

[Itinerant1]

Or they just wanted to hurry and get on the new band wagon for profits. Fix it/ update it down the road. Buyer beware of the sales pitch, atleast some folks are catching on to the charging requirements but many still are trusting souls lost in the forest.

[otrfun]

Finally got around to looking at the lithium charge options on our Renogy 40a dc to dc charger we have mounted in our truck camper. Bad news, the lithium mode is single-stage just like the PD, no float. However, the good news, in lithium mode you have 7 voltages to select from: 12.6v, 12.8v, 13.0v, 14.0v, 14.2v, 14.4v, and 14.6v. In lead acid/AGM/GEL mode it becomes a 2-stage charger (absorption and float). 3 absorptions choices: 14.1v, 14.4v or 14.7v. 3 float choices: 13.2v, 13.5v, and 13.8v.

Interesting that both Renogy and Progressive Dynamic (and no-doubt others) use single-stage lithium chargers. Got to wonder whether these manufacturers saw no harm in floating a LifePo4 indefinitely at higher voltages (let the BMS do the dirty work??), or they just assumed the end-user would simply disconnect/turn-off the charger for long-term storage (based on LifePo4's very low parasitics).

[3_tons]

otrfun wrote:

3 tons wrote:
The PD Lithium specific model is extremely flawed...Why??... Because it continues to charge the battery long after the battery is fully charged (eventually shortening battery life) and cannot be shut off without entirely disabling the 12v converter only function.....This is why their regular model is better, while it’ll deliver the necessary 14.4v when using the Charge Wizard set to Boost, and the 13.6v Absorption will be of no consequence...However, Equalization mode will need to be defeated....

3 tons

The Progressive Dynamic EQ mode only applies 14.4v for 15 min every 21 hours before dropping back down to 13.2v or 13.6v. Battleborn only expressed concern about floating their LifePo4's at 14.6v 24/7, weeks/months at a time. Very significant difference.

IMO, anyone with a LifePo4 who has the need to leave their rig unattended for weeks, months at a time should simply disconnect them--ideally with a 40-50% SOC, regardless what kind of converter/charger they have. With a parasitic discharge rate of only 1-2% a month, they'll be fine for a very, very long time---at least a year or more. Even 13.6v will quickly float LifePo4's to 97-98% SOC. Unless I'm missing something here, what's the point? Is it possible this is the reason Progressive Dynamic designed a single-stage 14.6v converter to begin with? They saw no urgent need to float a LifePo4?

Agreed, I disconnect mine while in longer term storage...Charging a LiFePO4 is slightly different than FWC’s, but once one gets past the keyboard mythology (lol 🙂 ) it is in no way difficult....

3 tons

[Itinerant1]

I like my programmable inverter with all the wants of your dream converters. 😉

[otrfun]

time2roll wrote:
Yes looking for a PD lithium that charges to 14.2 and shuts off. When battery hits 13.2 PD should come back on until it holds 14.2 for short duration. No equalization. Or how about adjustable. I would buy one tomorrow.

Great idea! 3-stage: 0/13.2v/14.2v. A totally programmable version (with a zero volt option) would be ideal. I would prefer a 14.6v bulk mode.

[time2roll]

Yes looking for a PD lithium that charges to 14.2 and shuts off. When battery hits 13.2 PD should come back on until it holds 14.2 for short duration. No equalization. Or how about adjustable. I would buy one tomorrow.