Charging ?

[Big_steve]

Is it okay to charge my trailer battery with a plain old car battery charger? I've never messed with a deep cycle battery before...

Thanks.

[full_mosey]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
What is the amp capability of your charger sir? I read your article thrice BTW. Yout=rs sounds appropriate for solar but it sounds like it needs slightly more than an arm-twist to compensate for adding a battery. The most important difference is this.

You can put the power supply and timer together for eighty dollars. It can actively envelope 100 to 240 AH range it's how much you have to twist that dial. Your system sounds much more appropriate for solar.

I need to repeat this again THIS IS NOT A CONVERTER IT IS A CHEAP EFFECTIVE BATTERY CHARGER THAT ELIMSTES EARLY BATTERY DEATH. Eliminate is a powerful word.

Click off the breaker for the converter
Go to a side bay
Grab the Meanwell plug it in
Connect clamps to battery posts
Twist dial

When the Meanwell clicks off the generator will surge.
Shut the generator down.

Effectiveness
Simplicity
Ease of use
COST
adaptability
Longevity

Your idea has merit but it's not for this job.

Remember, when a converter returns home and goes on a pedestal it has the luxury of 24/7 error correction. Then a simple twist of a dial when the Meanwell has engaged once again on shore power can compensate and correct for the chemical incompatibility between your algorithm and reality.

This is not celestial mechanics or counting quarks. It is a broad span voltage correction. Inexpensive and easy to understand.

Your idea is intriguing but must be made adjustable. Electricity and chemistry amalgamation is not the easiest subject.

The Meanwell and Timer is awesome

I don't know what you mean by 'this job'.

The question is whether my system is automatic, not whether it is for 'this job'.

It is based on my collecting logs for review and setting up an automated system that would saturate-charge my battery bank. I believe I have met that goal.

Since you have read the topic three times, I will attempt to make a clearer explanation.

The details of the charging amps and size of the battery bank are irrelevant. However, the bank is 620Ahs AGM, 400W solar, 75A PFC charger, and 1600W running inverter genny. At 10k feet, the genny gives 1000W.

Each day there is a timed charge with the purpose of reducing the charging Amps to the 0.5% goal. That definition is straight out of the Lifeline manual, pp 5.4 - Charging.

This is done by the solar controller when it starts a new day. It is set to compare overnight low Volts(onlv) using two trigger Voltage values.

If the onlv is above 12.6 then the Abs timer is set to 1hr followed by Float.

If the onlv is above 12.4 then the Abs timer is set to 2hrs followed by Float.

Otherwise(below 12.4) then Float is cancelled and Abs is until dark.

These tests are features built into the solar controller.

So you see, an onlv falling low Volts will be caught and corrected in the same way you might add time to your twist timer.

Simultaneously, I have a small computer keeping a log by fetching key statistics from the controller each minute. I can examine this log and produce graphs as you have seen in the other topic. I use this computer to talk to the controller. That is how the Voltage and time parameters are set up in the controller.

I believe this makes the system adjustable in real-time. I could use the computer to examine ongoing operation and send ad-hoc commands to the controller. After about a year and a half of operation I have seen no need for this.

I have used all available roof space for solar panels and I do have a 75A PFC inverter-charger which is all my genny can handle. The 75A charger allows the Amps to be adjusted.

I don't have any objection with a Meanwell power supply. I do have a question. Which Amp one would be useful at 1000W input considering PFC? How would that outperform my PFC 75A adjustable charger?

HTH;John

[BFL13]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
SATURATED

The charger achieves a regulated voltage limit instantly.

That is how you defined it in the past, but in this thread you seem to be using "saturation charging" more like in the link above now.

Perhaps it is not such a useful term since its meaning is not clear or well-known.

BTW, to achieve "instant Vabs" on a low battery, you need a very high charging rate (charger amps wrt battery AH) or else start with the battery at a high SOC already.

To achieve the specified minimum 20% charging rate on a bank of two 100AH batts all you need is a 40 amp charger, but that will stay at 40 amps until the batteries reach about 73% SOC. Vabs is then reached and held while amps taper from their "absorption" or "saturation" stage (in the other definitions)

If you start the charge to do "instant Vabs" at above 73% SOC you will be under the 20% charging rate. Now what?

To do "instant Vabs at below 73% you need a higher than 20% charging rate, going higher the lower the initial SOC. This where you run into generator power limiting the size in amps of the charger.

You have to juggle the practical factors in RVing for how big a gen you can have to run how big in amps the charger can be to match the size in AH of the bank your RV can carry and needs for your daily AH use, and what that means for your ability to do a high charging rate.

You also have the notion you don't want to go below say 40% SOC before recharging. That sets the low end of the SOC that you can start with to apply your charger to in hopes of hitting "instant Vabs"

Eg, with the 5er I needed a Honda 3000 to run my chargers at 155 amps with 100 of that PF corrected) on my bank of 584AH (temp corrected). So that was 155/584 = 26.5% charging rate--most I could do. At that, it stayed at 155 constant amps until Vabs was reached at 61% SOC.

Nowadays with the MH, the biggest gen I can carry along is a 2200w that maxes my non-PF corrected 75 amp charger, for my 450AH bank of AGMs. Most I can do.

So that is 75/450 = 16.7% charging rate. I cannot achieve 20% or more while camping. Starting the recharge at 50% SOC, it gets to 72% before Vabs is reached and held, while amps start to taper.

Only way I can do 20% charging rate is at home where I can split the bank and do part of it at a time at 75 amps. One at 250 and the other part at 200. Now 75/250 = 30%

[MEXICOWANDERER]

SATURATED

The charger achieves a regulated voltage limit instantly.

[BFL13]

This article uses "saturation" the way we use "absorption" and in a way that has the battery "saturated" when it is fully charged.

Article has some interesting things about the different types of chargers with the different types of batteries too.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/all_about_chargers

[MEXICOWANDERER]

What is the amp capability of your charger sir? I read your article thrice BTW. Yout=rs sounds appropriate for solar but it sounds like it needs slightly more than an arm-twist to compensate for adding a battery. The most important difference is this.

You can put the power supply and timer together for eighty dollars. It can actively envelope 100 to 240 AH range it's how much you have to twist that dial. Your system sounds much more appropriate for solar.

I need to repeat this again THIS IS NOT A CONVERTER IT IS A CHEAP EFFECTIVE BATTERY CHARGER THAT ELIMSTES EARLY BATTERY DEATH. Eliminate is a powerful word.

Click off the breaker for the converter
Go to a side bay
Grab the Meanwell plug it in
Connect clamps to battery posts
Twist dial

When the Meanwell clicks off the generator will surge.
Shut the generator down.

Effectiveness
Simplicity
Ease of use
COST
adaptability
Longevity

Your idea has merit but it's not for this job.

Remember, when a converter returns home and goes on a pedestal it has the luxury of 24/7 error correction. Then a simple twist of a dial when the Meanwell has engaged once again on shore power can compensate and correct for the chemical incompatibility between your algorithm and reality.

This is not celestial mechanics or counting quarks. It is a broad span voltage correction. Inexpensive and easy to understand.

Your idea is intriguing but must be made adjustable. Electricity and chemistry amalgamation is not the easiest subject.

The Meanwell and Timer is awesome

[full_mosey]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
My idea of hand's off charging is to start the generator, twist the timer dial then do other things. No blinking lights, no buttons to press again and again.

It doesn't take a triple-digit IQ to periodically check for cell bubbling. the first few times when recharging the amount of dial time and the first appearance of initial bubbling in a wet battery. When you see bubbling the battery is charged. But the battery needs REGULATED voltage to make any sense out of it. You could put too high a voltage setting the potentiometer voltage. This is why I play devil's advocate and selected 14.4 volts for everything.

Saturated charging is when a SANE finish voltage is selected (14.40) and the charger then achieved 14.40 within its ability. Obviously, a 40 amp charger can't do this immediately with one charger and it can not power a 150 amp grade Meanwell with a 2,000 watt generator. That's not fair and it's a failure of suppled AC power not saturated power. Saturated power is the key to saving time and money and frankly listening to a rattling generator is not one of my favorite activities.

With saturated or non saturated charging, there are no totally unscientific and absurd drops in voltage after X minutes of charging. The instant the voltage drops without acheiving saturated voltage YOU LOSE. Charging time increases radically and even worse some idiot designed smart chargers drop even further making an absurd 12 hour recharge a 30 hour ordeal. Batteries that are forced into 13.2 volts when they could be at 14.4 volts lengthen charging hours needed x 10 are ridiculous. An insult to human intelligence.

The human brain can vector time versus ESTIMATED hours of charge needed about ten trillion times more accurate than a nineteen cent Indonesian IC. Your frontal lobes learn. Einstein, said it best: To do things over and over and expect a different outcome is the definitionof insanity.

"How low was the battery voltage this morning?"
"12.22"
"That's lower than yesterday"
"Better add another half hour to the timer -- twist it further"

This is how you learn and it's a quick process. Anything but difficult. It takes a few samples and you are educated -- let's take an extreme. The batteries are overcharged dramatically, six hours instread of 2. The result? Try NO DAMAGE. Easier than baking a cake.

My battery bank? YAWN!
A hard night. Hurricane. Batteries are down to 24.2 volts
YAWN
Twist timer for four hours.
Then walk off.
That was sooooooooo hard.
The 710 amps initial charge of course sags to 130 but time's up charger stops generator burps and the "heart stopping drama" ends.

By the time I return to the generator it's cooled down so I shut it off.

Yawn.

Top Charging merely requires adding a half hour to the timer.

Or I could add some mentally challenging drama to the day -- play checkers.









9read

What you are saying then is that saturation = Absorption = charge.

If you had reviewed my link, you might have acknowledged that my charger is automatic and does exactly what you have described above.

There is one exception, the charger uses temp-comp to adjust the Abs/Float Voltage automatically. In that instance, my charger exceeds your description. You will find a graph it the link which shows that while 14.4V may be good enough, that it is not usually correct for charge=absorption=saturation.

I do not need to be present to start the charger nor to observe the operation in any way. I can be comfortably away from the system.

How is that not automatic?

HTH;
John

[MEXICOWANDERER]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Wanna go downtown park and shop?

Better leave at 0600 to find a coveted shady parking spot or return to a 140F car interior.

This ain't SF or Seattle or reno or the Santa Cruz mountains or joisee.

Put 3000 watts of panels on the roof to keep the 15K roof A/C fed in the sun and keep interior temps under 105F?

The conversation is about boondocking in now restricted gen hours parking with answering both FAST and COMPLETE charging.

The last thing I am going to do is ruin a 600 dollar set of AGMs with an ART DECO PLASTIC STAR WARS TOY flashing lights pile of snot that itself costs over a hundred dollars and in a word would be most useful as a MOBILE perched over a baby's crib.

I want to charge my batteries FAST with no fuss. Twist a dial and walk off.

Suitable for ages (6) and older

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Wanna go downtown park and shop?

Better leave at 0600 to find a coveted shady parking spot or return to a 140F car interior.

This ain't SF or Seattle or reno or the Santa Cruz mountains or joisee.

Put 3000 watts of panels on the roof to keep the 15K roof A/C fed in the sun and keep interior temps under 105F?

The conversation is about boondocking in now restricted gen hours parking with answering both FAST and COMPLETE charging.

The last thing I am going to do is ruin a 600 dollar set of AGMs with an ART DECO PLASTIC STAR WARS TOY flashing lights pile of snot that itself costs over a hundred dollars and in a word would be most useful as a MOBILE perched over a baby's crib.

I want to charge my batteries FAST with no fuss. Twist a dial and walk off.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Solar AIN'T where it's at. In the shade 80F interior. In the sun 115F interior.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Need more punch? I have tested this unit model to 148 amps continuous and over 20 hours it did not work up a sweat.

This model has paralleling ports. So if your generator has enough hair, try four units at 600 amps. Or seven (max) for 1,050 amperes output.

It's just as easy to operate as the little bitty 40 amp Meanwell.

TIP: A Honda 3,000 inverter gen would be pressed to operate anything more than one 750 watt Meanwell plus A/C and other normal hotel loads.

Don't let an idiot



BS you into believing it's a



Combined with a



Minus the 16 analog sensors needed plus ten grand in C++

It's that versus a 6th grade education

[MEXICOWANDERER]

My idea of hand's off charging is to start the generator, twist the timer dial then do other things. No blinking lights, no buttons to press again and again.

It doesn't take a triple-digit IQ to periodically check for cell bubbling. the first few times when recharging the amount of dial time and the first appearance of initial bubbling in a wet battery. When you see bubbling the battery is charged. But the battery needs REGULATED voltage to make any sense out of it. You could put too high a voltage setting the potentiometer voltage. This is why I play devil's advocate and selected 14.4 volts for everything.

Saturated charging is when a SANE finish voltage is selected (14.40) and the charger then achieved 14.40 within its ability. Obviously, a 40 amp charger can't do this immediately with one charger and it can not power a 150 amp grade Meanwell with a 2,000 watt generator. That's not fair and it's a failure of suppled AC power not saturated power. Saturated power is the key to saving time and money and frankly listening to a rattling generator is not one of my favorite activities.

With saturated or non saturated charging, there are no totally unscientific and absurd drops in voltage after X minutes of charging. The instant the voltage drops without acheiving saturated voltage YOU LOSE. Charging time increases radically and even worse some idiot designed smart chargers drop even further making an absurd 12 hour recharge a 30 hour ordeal. Batteries that are forced into 13.2 volts when they could be at 14.4 volts lengthen charging hours needed x 10 are ridiculous. An insult to human intelligence.

The human brain can vector time versus ESTIMATED hours of charge needed about ten trillion times more accurate than a nineteen cent Indonesian IC. Your frontal lobes learn. Einstein, said it best: To do things over and over and expect a different outcome is the definitionof insanity.

"How low was the battery voltage this morning?"
"12.22"
"That's lower than yesterday"
"Better add another half hour to the timer -- twist it further"

This is how you learn and it's a quick process. Anything but difficult. It takes a few samples and you are educated -- let's take an extreme. The batteries are overcharged dramatically, six hours instread of 2. The result? Try NO DAMAGE. Easier than baking a cake.

My battery bank? YAWN!
A hard night. Hurricane. Batteries are down to 24.2 volts
YAWN
Twist timer for four hours.
Then walk off.
That was sooooooooo hard.
The 710 amps initial charge of course sags to 130 but time's up charger stops generator burps and the "heart stopping drama" ends.

By the time I return to the generator it's cooled down so I shut it off.

Yawn.

Top Charging merely requires adding a half hour to the timer.

Or I could add some mentally challenging drama to the day -- play checkers.









9read

[full_mosey]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
When one of my chargers acheives 100% charged in HALF the time as yours then you really ought to take another look. The key is saturated charging. And pnichols is on the right track.

One of my chargers analyzes the bulk stage and calculates a time for the Abs stage in a range of 1 to 12 hours. It also calculates the appropriate Abs Voltage based on battery temperature. 14.4 Volts is not always calculated and neither is 4 hours Abs.

What exactly is 'saturated' charging and why is that optimal in all circumstances?

Why is 14.4V and 4 hours better; better than what?

Will YOU take a look at this?


HTH;
John

[BFL13]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
When one of my chargers acheives 100% charged in HALF the time as yours then you really ought to take another look. The key is saturated charging. And pnichols is on the right track.

I just need to complete a 50-90 in two hours from 9am to 11 am in my worst scenario off-grid for that. I can manage that with my set-up now if I cheat a bit and go an extra 15 minutes. The "rangers" don't actually care what I do as it happens, since they are usually so busy with their chain saws clearing up storm damage or whatever. 😞

It is not "worth it" to change the set-up ($$$) to be able to do a 50-90 in less than 2 hours in my case.

I don't think anybody is arguing against keeping gen time to a minimum. I thought we were discussing how "smart chargers" can't get the battery truly full. But doing 50-90s means not even trying to reach full. If you are on shore power and try to reach full with a smart charger, you are using the wrong tool for the job in most cases. (exception is my 1093 on the 27DC mentioned earlier)

I only ever try to get my AGMs full when on shore power, and I use my PowerMax adjustable voltage charger for that job, not my smart charger--again, choose the right tool for the job.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

When one of my chargers acheives 100% charged in HALF the time as yours then you really ought to take another look. The key is saturated charging. And pnichols is on the right track.