Gassing

[TomG2]

Do flooded wet cell batteries only produce gas when being charged? Can they be charged outdoors and then placed inside a camper for use powering fans, etc. safely?

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Oxide (Exide) GNB batteries are made in Mexico. The reseller GOHNER (By golly it's a goner right from the git go) has GNB batteries. And if they are deep cycle I'm a reclusive billionaire.

A marine starting battery is a car starting battery with cutesy terminals.

Gullible people are lied to and told "Ooooooo lookie! Our emergency exit lighting system uses exactly the same battery we're trying to pawn off - I mean, sell to you as a superior RV battery"

Emergency batteries are changed according to maintenance turnaround schedule and they are NOT designed to undergo frequent nor profound discharges.

But so be it. It's not my hook, my line, my sinker, or my flesh at stake. They could two tone a sheep and call it a whiteface and some people would reach for the A1. I expect to see whitewall load range E tires any time now.

[BFL13]

I have no clue if the Interstate M24 sealed battery I got is calcium or just the usual, same as a capped M24.

The last two car batteries I got in the last two years were also both sealed, not caps. No idea if they are calcium or not.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-eliminator-automotive-batteries-0103485p.html#srp

I tried to look up my second hand battery I got from Interstate. No luck. It is an Econo Power label, meaning refurbished and resold at low price. It says 24M-650 on it with a marker pen. It is all black and is sealed.

So I am not too clear now if it is a starting battery or a marine/rv type (which are usually green and white). It will do the job for me even if it is a starting battery.

I may be wrong in thinking they now have sealed marine/rv batts though. Just don't know now.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Calcium calcium can be used on an engine starting battery under the following conditions

a) Not more than 10% parasitic discharge in 60 days

b) Discharge cycle must not exceed 20% and then, only very occasionally.

Calcium does not corrode terminals -for the first few years terminal degradation the lack of, rivals AGM.

There is no antimonial migration (poisoning) of the negative plates.

Calcium has 15/14ths the watt capacity of 1.75% antimony construction.
Obey the calcium/calcium gods, long taboo list and these batteries survive for a long time.

BUT BUT BUT (caveat city) The engine alternator must support safe for the battery voltage values. No up and down cycling in protracted traffic jams after sundown with the A/C on. Ca/Ca despises even 5% cycling when done thousands of times. Waiting at the border for instance, my battery 5% cycled over one hundred times. One trip. Two hours of creep and stop. Done 5 days a week it would be a Ca/Ca death knell.

I mentioned the Delco 1116405 pulse width modulated voltage regulators for the 15 SI Delco (1970's and 80's) alternator. The set point for the regulator was 15.0 volts, but 5c cold starts had it soaring to 15.4. Delco got cute and designed its alternator for it's Calcium Calcium Delcotron battery with the MAGIC EYE. Much to Delco's chagrin the eye didn't wander between green and black (specific gravity. Owners were soon staring at RED eyes (dead cell) and YELLOW eyes (low water).

Lugging a forty pound battery for 20 ampere hour usage raises my eyebrows. If the batteries were free, that offsets much of that question.

Truly paranoid operation of the calcium battery in my toad has allowed it to not die in 4-years. Absolutely zero accessory-on, utilization.

The toad has a dinosaur three-phase delta stator Bosch "40-90" alternator. A 3.0 ohm rotor bobbin. And a rotor stator air gap a thrown cat would fly through.

Upgrading to a Mitsubishi 50/120 alternator like LY has is an option. But an ultra low VFr schottky external rectifier would be incorporated. A 500 amp model. It would tweak the idle 50 amp rating to 60 and the high end 120 to 135 or so.

Matt, I would have to say the garden variety 3-step voltage regulators on sailboats are just a tad more reliable and accurate. Plus, battery storage ambient temperatures are a lot friendlier and unless things get bumpy, engines and below decks get a lot of ventilation. Swinging on scope, I have yet to see a cruiser not open deck hatches when recharging. The "Black Swan (Drool)" is my fantasy sloop. But Daryl probably replaced the L16's with AGM or Lithium by now.

It takes near a full on CCA grade discharge to cause gas evolvement with a Ca Ca battery. And I was remiss in not being direct with BFL about my opinion of being OK. I hope he does not poke and prod the -20% rule...

[pianotuna]

Hi,

No significant gassing on discharge unless there is a catastrophic failure--such as a shorted plate on one of a pair of batteries--or a shore in the wiring.

I would prefer to see the jars in a sealed box that is vented to the great outdoors. It will take a little more space--but then it will be safe, too.

TomG2 wrote:
Thanks to all. I understand being careful and that is why I asked the question.

[TomG2]

Thanks to all. I understand being careful and that is why I asked the question.

[RJsfishin]

You never ever put a L/A battery inside the living space of any boat or RV.
In boats, the batteries are kept in the bilge, and all bilges are ventilated to the outside.

[Matt_Colie]

TomG2 wrote:
Do flooded wet cell batteries only produce gas when being charged? Can they be charged outdoors and then placed inside a camper for use powering fans, etc. safely?

Tom,

You have never gotten a clear answer to your questions. So,
Yes, but very little.
Yes

More involved discussion:
=> Once most Lead/Acid batteries are charged, they pretty much cease outgassing. The problem is that the loose hydrogen can still be detected by sensitive instruments.
=> If you have finished charging and you give the jar a couple of minutes to let the H2 escape, it will.

I do suggest that if you are going to do this, you store and carry the jar in a marine style battery box. No matter what you do with anything but a sealed battery, there will be acid residue on the surfaces.

If L/A batteries could not be safely inside, sailboats would be in real tough shape.

Matt

[BFL13]

They seem to be selling a lot of sealed Wet batts for car engines these days, and they see lots of 14.6v before dropping to running voltage closer to 14/13.8ish.

I got a second hand refurbished whatever Interstate M24 recently that is sealed. AFAIK that is a Marine/RV sort of "deep cycle". I don't know if it has a different chemistry from the normal capped version like Mex is talking about.

I did do an Equalize on it once I got it home to make sure it was as good as it can be. No hydrometer to confirm. It did a few hours at 15.7 on the Vector's E and did not blow up or anything. If it did gas I have no way to know if it needs water.

Not sure I like this sealed Wet business. Seems like it has the disadvantages of an AGM without the benefits. 😞 Of course the sealed Wet is half the price of the AGM.

[time2roll]

No significant gassing during discharge.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

The fit, first of all on a flooded VRB is in the fact that it is a calcium calcium battery. Compare sentencing of a calcium calcium battery to cycling duty to handing a Wall Street trader a pick & shovel. The trader may choose to merely bonk you over the head with the shovel.

The calcium calcium battery shouts "Well I'll show you!" and dies.

Evolvement of gas has a significantly higher voltage threshold with Ca/Ca. The accumulators can be maintained at + .8 higher float* with almost no gassing.

I did a painful study of Delco Voyager in the 1980's then Ca/Ca Keystone "Deep Cycle" batteries in the early 1990's.

In excess of sixty DUTs (100%) failed survival after fifty discharges to 50% state of charge. In this case "failure" meant retaining 50% amp hour capacity - a generous allowance.

The 20% DOD (80% remaining) test was terminated at 70+ cycles for failure to render payment for testing. Out of curiosity the single Ca/Ca I capacity tested rendered 90+% capacity at 20% DOD. The remainder was palletized and recycled.

*As compared to a car jar 2.75% antimony "Deep Cycle" battery. Not to be confused with a golf car or L-16 truly cyclable battery.

Evaluating appropriateness is strictly up to the user.

[TomG2]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

To equalize the cells they needs must gas. Other than that, with sealed batteries voltage should be kept lower than the gassing voltage which is temperature sensitive.

I get that. My question is, "Can they be safely used indoors when not connected to a charging source?"

[pianotuna]

Hi,

To equalize the cells they needs must gas. Other than that, with sealed batteries voltage should be kept lower than the gassing voltage which is temperature sensitive.

TomG2 wrote:
Are you saying that they only give off gas when charging and in fact at higher voltages?

[Sam_Spade]

TomG2 wrote:

Are you saying that they only give off gas when charging and in fact at higher voltages?

Not exactly.

They only give off enough gas to be a problem when being charged at a HIGH rate.
At normal charging rates, the small amount of H and O generated will not cause a problem .......unless maybe there is a spark or flame within a couple of inches of the battery.

Once dispersed, neither H or O are dangerous.

If charged at a REALLY high rate, so that the electrolyte actually boils.....then Sulfuric acid fumes can be dangerous.

Best to use AGMs inside. Next best is sealed wet with a reasonably sized charger. Last is open wet with a small charger but that option really is not recommended.

[BFL13]

SidecarFlip wrote:
The gas both ways, charge and discharge. Chemical reaction.

The discharge has the SG and voltage going down together, but on recharge there is "SG Lag" which AFAIK is related to gassing somewhat.

Not too clear on how that all fits.

In the TC with its not much to outside vented battery box under the step up to the bed in front, the Wet batts on converter Float 13.6 kept making the LP alarm go off. I put in AGMs to cure that. Lately after moving the AGMs to the Class C, I have a sealed Wet in the TC on converter Float and it does not set off the LP alarm.

(I figure the LP alarm is sensitive to battery fumes as well as propane. Other fumes too according to reports on here about that.)

However, that may not answer the OP about safety, since the LP alarm is not a human and may have different standards for what is acceptable wrt battery fumes.